Degrees of Accountability and Unconditional Forgiveness.

there was some minor off-topic discussion i had in another thread with mpb1. he made some claims about judgement based on amount of revelation (that's with a little r on purpose. not the book.)it ended up with this in message 112 of the fear of atheism thread. my question is how does this reconcile with an unconditional, total forgiveness by the all powerful blood of christ? is this for things that have not been repented? i understand that this is not damnation, but a separate kind of judgement. am i mistaken? what will this judgement be like. how does condemnation exist in the reality of "there is now no condemnation for those in christ"?i want a bible study, and not input from the uninterested about how "oh well the stupid book just doesn't match up." congrats. i know that. that's not a real answer. god didn't do it is just as worthless an answer as god did it.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Hi Brenna,I don't know how far to go with this yet until there is more input. I think you will find that this is a subject that has a wide variety of opinions depending on denomination.The Catholic version would most likely be Purgatory. Purgatory is not for unrepented sins mainly, but for un-penanced sins. In other words, if you have not been purified, you will spend some time there regardless of your repentence.I believe there could be degress of punishment in Hell, as well as degress of reward in Heaven.Maybe you could be more specific in your inquiries?

i guess it's just that i was raised a presbyterian. and though faith, if she were here, would surely disagree with me, i learned that the saving power of the blood of christ was infinite, eternal, and immediate. there is no punishment for failing to go to confession. there is no half hell for only tithing 5%.in my experience, there is no need for penance, the price was paid.(by the way, the catholic church has in the last few years officially denounced purgatory and limbo, from what i've heard.)i'm probably confused because of denominational theology. there are plenty of protestants who don't think salvation is eternal and instead can be lost. i think truthlover is one. i'd rather avoid this argument. they tend to view it about the ability and desire to sin. i tend to view it as a question of the power of god.

That is one view yes. No, not true. On either count. Avoid all you will.

Perhaps you'd better quote some scripture on that issue too.When trying to reconcile two arguments, it's best to have both of them. It could be the forgiveness part that needs to yield, or it could be the judgement part. Without a sample of both, I can't say.Edited by Doddy, : missed a 'w'

---

Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today! Contributors needed in the following fields: Physical Anthropology, Invertebrate Biology (esp. Lepidopterology), Biochemistry, Population Genetics, Scientific Illustration, Scientific History, Philosophy of Science, Logic and others. Researchers also wanted to source creationist literature references. Register here!

I think you're running into current teachings vs the Bible.I've found it a common teaching in the Bible that those who know something is wrong and still do wrong will be judged differently than those who don't know that something is wrong and do the wrong.A child is not considered disobedient until he knows what he is doing is wrong.What verses in the Bible give the impression that God's forgiveness is unconditional?I think forgiveness is conditional upon repentance. We ask God for forgiveness.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

well. what i was referring to is the idea of a total forgiveness occuring at the moment of salvation (which to some is a moment, unlike conception). but yes. that requires repentance. but repentance provides a whole forgiveness. but somehow these people who do wrong will still be punished, and moreso because they knew the truth, in spite of repentance?

Hi Brenna.
1. As a child of around 10 I prayed, receiving Jesus into my being; body mind and soul to be my savior and lord/master. Shortly afterward Satan, the "accuser of the brethren" began needling my spirit, causing me to worry about whether I was truly "saved" or "lost" spiritually. I remember shortly after still as a young child reading a gospel tract on which was the verses of I John 5:11, 12, 13 which make three simple factual statements:
1. The record/facts: "God has given to us eternal life and this life is in his son" (Jesus).
2. he (she) who has the son (Jesus) has life and he/she who has not the son (Jesus) has not life.
3. V 13: "These things are written....that you may know that you have eternal life.Question: How does one get the son, Jesus?
Ans. John 1:12 "As many as received him, to them he gave power to become the children of God."Question: How does one receive the son, Jesus?
Ans: Romans 10:13 "Whoever shall call on the name of the Lord Jesus shall be saved."Then finally this. Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace through faith are we saved, and this (faith) is the gift of God; not of works which we have done, lest any man (woman) should boast."So to sumarize, you do the above steps and by faith trust in God to honor his promises via his word, you can know you have eternal life.Now, having said the above, we all know that there are those who've done these things and no longer hold to them, in fact denouncing them including not a few who say so on these forums. Imo, these have deliberately removed themselves from the family of God/heaven et al. There are other scriptures which deal with this apostacy which is another topic.There are some things one must do to grow spiritually, once having received Christ so as to have the assurance and witness of God's spirit that they are God's children et al.
1. daily into the Word/Bible. (spiritual food)
I Peter 2:2,3 "As newborn babes (in Christ) desire the sincere milk of the word that you may grow thereby. By this you have tasted that the Lord is gracious."
2. Pray daily to god as "Father" in the name of the mediator/high priest/sacrificial lamb of God as per Jesus's instructions before he was crucified.
3. Confess your sins to the Father/god in the name of Jesus/saviour and advocate/priest.
4. Love the "brethren" and comune/assemble with them regularly
5. Be baptized by water, (the one and only physical aspect of the Christian experience which all who believed agreed to do and did do. I see this as like an initiation into a fraternity, et al, to confirm/solidify to the world what you did spiritually in your heart. This is your testimony to the world that you are officially a Christian and imo has nothing to do with church membership as some falsely teach.
6. Finally, confess Jesus with your mouth. Matthew 10:32. Whoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess before my Father which is in Heaven; but whoever shall deny me before men, him will I deny before my father which is in Heaven."
Roman 10:9 "If you shall confess me before men and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead you shall be saved."Couple all of the above with the words of Jesus in John 3:3-5 when Jesus said to Nicodemus, " you must be born again" (from above) via the Holy Spirit. You see, The HS is the spirit of Jesus and of the Father, Jehovah. Jesus presently sits on the right hand of the throune of God/father in Heaven, so receiving Jesus means to receive his HS into your very body, mind and being making your body literally the temple of God/HS. This, imo is the Baptism of the HS spoken of in 1 Corinthians 12:13 where we are ALL (all believers) baptized into on body (spiritual church body of Jesus). Thus when Jesus was crucified the veil of the Holy of Holies in the Temple at Jerusalem was torn from top to bottom, being now obsolete, the bodies of believers being the new dwelling place of God on earth and the animal sacrifices no longer needed as Jesus once and for all replaced that means of sacrificial death required for sin.According to James and other scriptures, the above if done in sincerety will be evidenced by some measure of change. "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature. Old things are passed away and all things are become new." (II Corinthians 5:17). James also says there should be fruit evidenced. Imo this will be to the degree of growth as a Christian. As in the physical, some mature faster and to a greater maturity than others, depending on devotion to the Biblical values, et al.About sin. True children of God are punished/corrected for sin just as our physical children are by parents. "Whom God loves he chastens" it says and some are sick and even die due to this chastening for rebellion, et al. Does that mean you loose your salvation? I believe not. It's like the OT rebels of a family. The law says parents should have a public stoning for a totally unmanigable rebellious son. That doesn't mean he wasn't their son, but he rebelled to the point of this action under Jewish law so as to keep the Jewish nation Israel, God's people from going astray. This of course is not carried over into any other nation or into the NT via the period of grace et al. I'm using it solely as an analogy as to how it is dangerous for believers to rebel and ignore the admonitions of a loving father who is out for the good of all of his church. Note: This is action by God only and not of his people, one against the other.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Brenna, it still depends upon who you ask. There is no 'answer'. To some repentence is just that. Baptism could be the absolution needed from sin, or confession to a priest, etc. Repentence is not in itself the 'salvation', only the means to it.Salvation is not a once done thing. For example, I as a Catholic do not believe in being 'saved' and having some secure knowledge of all future crimes being forgiven. Because of this I find no contradiction in the mercy of God and His punishments. Repentence only deals with the past. It may predispose a person to future actions in accordance with God's will, but you see that those who HAVE repented are the more guilty! They are more guilty in the future for transgressions which they already understand as 'evil'.

quote:

---

but repentance provides a whole forgiveness. but somehow these people who do wrong will still be punished, and moreso because they knew the truth, in spite of repentance?

---

The verses in your Message 1 aren't saying that, if I understand what you are saying.If you have repented, you are no longer doing wrong.The verses are talking about people who know or have been told that what they are doing is wrong, and they keep on doing what is wrong. They haven't repented.So those who don't know or haven't been told that what they are doing is wrong and keep doing wrong won't be judged as harshly as those who know or have been told what they are doing is wrong and continue to do wrong.

---

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

repentance doesn't mean you suddenly become perfect. it means your desires and your hopes change. but people fail.

but my understanding is that salvation is a once done thing. you continue to grow as a person and you continue to fail on your journey to a relationship, but it is finished. the battle is won. in context, he's saying, he wants to do the will of god, but he still can't. it's not about what he used to do; it's about his current reality. we change what we want. we reach out to god. we hope. we aspire. we fail. but his grace is unending and his promise is our salvation. we can be confident in his promise to save us from ourselves. we don't have to feel guilty. we don't have to lie prostrate instead of living. there is now NO condemnation. why is it that people insist on living like they're still dying?Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

milk is great, but i'm older now.

Any comments on the rest of the message? Agree? Disagree?