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Author Topic:   Fear of venomous (& poisonous) animals: who is to blame?
Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 11 (96981)
04-02-2004 3:00 AM


Hi there,
Followind Adminnemooseus's suggestion, lets try to have a nice constructive discussion on this theme.
Linked from: http://EvC Forum: Creationists and evolutionists -->EvC Forum: Creationists and evolutionists
What's the problem between some people and spiders, snakes, toads and other related animals?
Denesha

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Quetzal, posted 04-02-2004 8:58 AM Denesha has not replied
 Message 3 by Buzsaw, posted 04-02-2004 9:47 AM Denesha has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 2 of 11 (97003)
04-02-2004 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Denesha
04-02-2004 3:00 AM


I'm pretty far out of my depth here, so I could be off-base. I think it's an evolutionary adaptation. Since the fear response is more or less initiated by the amygdala - a relatively less-derived brain structure - and only afterwards moderated by the cortex, it would seem to make sense that the reaction is a really really old one. As I understand it, perceptual cues are derived from auditory and visual input, then sent to both the cortex and amygdala. The amygdala gets it faster, however. Back when we were a small tasty insectivore the size of my hand, being able to react immediately to potential threats would be a survival benefit. As Joseph LeDoux put it,
quote:
Failing to respond to danger is more costly than responding inappropriately to a benign stimulus. (Ledoux 2002, Emotion, Memory and the Brain, SciAm Feb 2002)
IMO, the fear reaction to spiders, snakes and other things in humans is a hold-over from the time when these organisms WERE significant threats. The fact that many people can overcome them indicates that lack of familiarity - i.e., the identification of these organisms as NOT posing a threat - is why people still fear them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Denesha, posted 04-02-2004 3:00 AM Denesha has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 11 (97010)
04-02-2004 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Denesha
04-02-2004 3:00 AM


Biblically speaking, it's likely due to the fall and the curses involved in Genesis. It is prophesied that after messiah/Jesus returns and things are going to change back for the better in that the child will be able to play at the hole of a cobra without fear of being poisoned and the lamb will be safe with the lion. All animals will then become vegetarians. What makes the difference? Possibly the fact that it is also prophesied that during this time Satan will be confined to the bottomless pit
In the mean time why should anyone be wondering why the aversion to poisonous life threatening creature types? The fact that there are poisonous snakes leads many to avoid all snakes, especially those not having knowledge about them. By the time you figure out which kind you're encountering it may be too late.
Imo, inhabited areas of the world can do fine without rattlers and copperheads. There's plenty of others to do their need jobs for the ecology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Denesha, posted 04-02-2004 3:00 AM Denesha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by 1.61803, posted 04-02-2004 11:19 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 5 by Denesha, posted 04-02-2004 11:24 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 4 of 11 (97027)
04-02-2004 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
04-02-2004 9:47 AM


I am quite certain the snakes would benefit from maintaining a great distance from humans as well. Texans still hold horrific 'rattlesnake round ups here, under the guise that it limits snake populations in the community. Which it does. But it is more for profit than anything else. Thousands of snakes are rounded up from they're dens and killed, skinned, eaten. So I guess the snake handlers and snake vendors should thank God for providing them with a animal to exploit. I think bibilically the snake got a raw deal. God cursed his own creature because Satan took that form but it was not the Snakes fault. JMHO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Buzsaw, posted 04-02-2004 9:47 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 11 (97030)
04-02-2004 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Buzsaw
04-02-2004 9:47 AM


Dear Quetzal and Buzsaw,
These are indeed two pertinent investigation fields.
A Physiologic (emotional) buried response (instinct?) and a subtle reptilian strategy. This is a successful start.
A troubling fact is that Australian natives lives in the world region where the most venomous snake species exist. But these snakes are important actors of their belief and culture.
Denesha

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Buzsaw, posted 04-02-2004 9:47 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 04-03-2004 1:44 PM Denesha has replied

  
Parsimonious_Razor
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 11 (97507)
04-03-2004 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Denesha
04-02-2004 11:24 AM


Denesha writes:
A troubling fact is that Australian natives lives in the world region where the most venomous snake species exist. But these snakes are important actors of their belief and culture.
Though I know little of the belief could it be the old pattern that you worship in order to appease? That by working the snakes into the religious practices it’s showing it a respect or even warding off of its danger?
I think the obvious evolutionary link comes into play when you look at such things as phobias and disgust factors. A phobia is the development of a completely irrational fear and one that is often very destructive. The vast vast majority of phobias develop over stressors that would have been present in the Environment of Evolutionary Adaptiveness. I am not sure if there is a clear cut case of a phobia developing over an evolutionarily novel stimuli.
I think normal fear responses can be built up by proximate learning of dangers associated with specific things in the present environment. This novelty is necessary and important. But novel sources of fear take longer to develop anxiety about, are not developed intrinsically (you have to have some sort of information about why it’s a distinct danger, and often it has to be fairly dramatic. Like plane crashes or child abductions. Rather than abstract figures about car crashes), and rarely develop into full blown phobias.
I think the disgust factor is interesting in this regard as well. Humans develop a disgust factor only to things that are biological in nature. We have adaptive psychological modules in how we differentiate our reactions to other species. Young children very early on develop fairly complex models of animal interactions such as predator/prey models and "contagent" models.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Denesha, posted 04-02-2004 11:24 AM Denesha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Denesha, posted 04-08-2004 5:09 AM Parsimonious_Razor has not replied

  
Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 11 (98633)
04-08-2004 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Parsimonious_Razor
04-03-2004 1:44 PM


I agree with you. Irrational phobies should have a plain scientific explanation concerning their origin. I still believe that this genetic secular fear is gave to (human) offspring, next reactivated, overstated and hijacked by religious environmental mediators.
Animal venomous apparatus are not recent functional novelties. I bear in mind that venomous animals existed long time before the human lineage was separed from apes in Africa. Venom was a limitative environmental parameter but completely different than Felidae or Crocodile predation. Casualties were heavy to support for the primitive human population but the signification is different.
I mean that you must do an intelligent relationship between a bite and a later fatal issue. For snakes, scorpions, the bite (or sting) is painful so this association is quite easy to consider but this is not true for spiders. World toxicologic statistics are unable to tell how much people really die each year due to spider envenimation.
Snakes are fully integrated (bad or good) to beliefs. Not spiders yet...
Any guess?
Denesha

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 04-03-2004 1:44 PM Parsimonious_Razor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Mespo, posted 04-08-2004 12:14 PM Denesha has replied

  
Mespo
Member (Idle past 2885 days)
Posts: 158
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
Joined: 09-19-2002


Message 8 of 11 (98683)
04-08-2004 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Denesha
04-08-2004 5:09 AM


Snake Idols
Denesha writes:
Snakes are fully integrated (bad or good) to beliefs. Not spiders yet...Any guess?
Several reasons, Denesha
1. Snakes are easier to mold in clay than spiders. Also in stuffed cloth or paper. Simple arts and crafts projects for kids, even several thousand years ago. So it made it a lot easier to act out bible stories or other snake myths and legends.
2. Same thing applies to adults when it comes to making molds for gold or silver snake statues and jewelry. Spider molds are very labor intensive and you still can't make them esthetically pleasing.
3. Ever let a snake slither over your arm? Their skin is cool and dry. Their movements can be very sensuous. Spiders on the other hand are very herky-jerky. Not graceful at all.
4. Even though snakes don't have visible eyelids (most varieties, anyway), you know when they are looking at you. They can move their heads. And their tongues are so cute. Spiders, on the other hand, well ,it's just hard to say.
5. People can relate to an animal that eats it's prey, like a snake does. Now try using your spit to digest a piece of meat and suck it down like a spider.
6. Ever see a spider charmer? Blowing on a flute to get a spider to come out of a basket just doesn't have the same crowd appeal.
I'm sure you can think of others, but spiders are just plain repulsive to many people, while snakes can fascinate, horrify and attract, all at the same time.
(:raig

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Denesha, posted 04-08-2004 5:09 AM Denesha has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Denesha, posted 04-08-2004 2:41 PM Mespo has not replied
 Message 11 by Denesha, posted 04-11-2004 5:43 AM Mespo has not replied

  
Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 11 (98708)
04-08-2004 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Mespo
04-08-2004 12:14 PM


Re: Snake Idols
Dear Mespo,
Thank you very much for this brillant contribution. Honestly, I didn't inverstigate these fields yet.
Have a nice day,
Denesha

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Mespo, posted 04-08-2004 12:14 PM Mespo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 04-08-2004 3:12 PM Denesha has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 10 of 11 (98715)
04-08-2004 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Denesha
04-08-2004 2:41 PM


Re: Snake Idols
The fear stimulii may not be all snake related either
a feline lying low in ambush flicks it's tail ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Denesha, posted 04-08-2004 2:41 PM Denesha has not replied

  
Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 11 (99193)
04-11-2004 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Mespo
04-08-2004 12:14 PM


spider idols
Hi Mespo,
This one is famous and according to the huge size of this drawing, people from the Nazca valley (Peru) have really appreciated this animal.
From : http://www.gpsdrawing.com/gallery/land/portspider.htm
But I agree with you, such example is quite rare.
Denesha

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Mespo, posted 04-08-2004 12:14 PM Mespo has not replied

  
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