Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 84 (8914 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 06-27-2019 2:48 AM
21 online now:
AZPaul3, dwise1, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus) (3 members, 18 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: 4petdinos
Upcoming Birthdays: ooh-child
Post Volume:
Total: 854,844 Year: 9,880/19,786 Month: 2,302/2,119 Week: 338/724 Day: 1/62 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
234Next
Author Topic:   Viagra & Evolution
Peg
Member (Idle past 3103 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 1 of 55 (490222)
12-03-2008 5:33 AM


If evolution is the propagation of the species by survival of the fittest and natural selection

how are erectile problems to be explained?

there are many couples who need ivf treatment to conceive these days, men are becoming impotent, sterility issues... how does evolutionary science explain this phenomenon???


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Granny Magda, posted 12-03-2008 8:19 AM Peg has responded
 Message 5 by Huntard, posted 12-03-2008 8:42 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 6 by NosyNed, posted 12-03-2008 9:36 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 7 by Blue Jay, posted 12-03-2008 9:38 AM Peg has responded
 Message 21 by Rrhain, posted 12-05-2008 1:33 AM Peg has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12602
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 2 of 55 (490238)
12-03-2008 7:51 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 3 of 55 (490243)
12-03-2008 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
12-03-2008 5:33 AM


And the Prize For Most Bizarre Topic Title Goes Too...
Hi Peg,

This is really pretty simple. People living in the modern day are able to get incredibly old.

Our ancestors, both pre-human hominids and early humans, lived a very different lives to us. They had to live on their wits, hunting and gathering, making shelter, moving over great distances and avoiding predators. Their lives were very hard.

The upshot of this is that they tended to live shorter lives, compared to us. Forty years old would be pretty venerable for an early human.

Erectile dysfunction is one of the many effects of ageing. It tends to happen to older men. Early humans and hominids would be unlikely to survive to such a ripe old age that they need worry about such things. Thus, natural selection would not select strongly against them.

For an organism to claim evolutionary success, it need only breed and pass on its genes. It need only breed successfully once to do this.

Erectile dysfunction doesn't kick in until late in life, so the chances are that any individual will have already bred successfully before it ever becomes an issue. From an evolutionary point of view, it doesn't matter if Granpa can't get it up; he has already done everything that evolution needed him to do in having children.

Example. An allele that caused erectile dysfunction at the age of ten and up would be disastrous to the individual's chances of reproducing. It would destroy the man's chance of reproducing before he even reached sexual maturity. Natural selection would select very strongly against such an allele.

An allele that caused erectile dysfunction at the age of sixty however would be pretty harmless to the man's chance of reproducing. He could reproduce before the dysfunction struck and pass on his genes (including the erectile dysfunction allele) without hindrance, only to die when it was past breeding age anyway. There is nothing for natural selection to work on here and the allele would likely persist in the population.

It may be frustrating for Granpa, but it is not a problem for the theory of evolution.

This is actually the kind of process that is thought to lie behind the ageing process itself. Genes that cause problems in old age just aren't very strongly selected against, so they accumulate. I hope this helps.

Mutate and Survive

Edited by Granny Magda, : Typo in title. In the word "title" appropriately enough.


"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 12-03-2008 5:33 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 12-03-2008 8:22 AM Granny Magda has responded
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 5:00 AM Granny Magda has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18498
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 4 of 55 (490244)
12-03-2008 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Granny Magda
12-03-2008 8:19 AM


Re: And the Prize For Most Bizarre Topic Tile Goes Too...
I promoted the topic because it mentions the relatively recent phenomenon of decreasing fertility among young men.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Granny Magda, posted 12-03-2008 8:19 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Granny Magda, posted 12-03-2008 10:49 AM Percy has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 468 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 5 of 55 (490245)
12-03-2008 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
12-03-2008 5:33 AM


I'll give the same answer here as I did in the viagra spam mail thread.
Peg writes:

If evolution is the propagation of the species by survival of the fittest and natural selection
how are erectile problems to be explained?

there are many couples who need ivf treatment to conceive these days, men are becoming impotent, sterility issues... how does evolutionary science explain this phenomenon???


I don't see how this is a problem for evolution. If these individuals can't reproduce, there gense will simply dissapear from the species. Where's the problem here?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 12-03-2008 5:33 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 6 of 55 (490248)
12-03-2008 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
12-03-2008 5:33 AM


Environmental Changes
As noted by others this is not a problem at all for the evolutionary model.

On a purely speculative note there is another possibility:

If the environment changes too quickly a species may no longer be well suited to it. If it doesn't evolve fast enough then extinction is the result. This is what will happen to all species, us included.

Perhaps we are changing the environment too quickly with a chemical stew and we are seeing the very earliest signs of this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 12-03-2008 5:33 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 871 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 7 of 55 (490249)
12-03-2008 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Peg
12-03-2008 5:33 AM


Evolution by Personal Selection
Hi, Peg.

As you’ve probably heard, there are two fundamental processes involved in the gestalt effect of evolution: (1) mutation and (2) natural selection. Mutation is a fundamentally undirected process that produces hordes of new information1 without any regard to its usefulness. Natural selection is a "directed" process that filters all the new information by its usefulness to survival and reproduction, and actively prevents any deleterious information from propagating itself, often by simply killing it before it can propagate. In this, natural selection is not an actual force of nature, like gravity, but is simply the combined effect of myriads of environmental influences that can prevent propagation from occurring. It’s more convenient for us to refer to it by its gestalt, rather than by all the thousands of things that lead to it.

Please take care to notice that the Theory of Evolution only postulates that mutations occur, not how they occur. It is not a theory designed to explain what causes mutations: those causes can be radiation, pH fluctuations, statistical “typos” by the machinery in the cell, etc.: all of which are explanable by various theories of chemistry and biochemistry. Frankly, it wouldn’t matter if aliens from orbit were using bizarre technology to create mutations in populations: natural selection would still work on these and cause the best of them to outcompete the others.

The result of this is that ToE is not responsible for explaining how bad information happens in individuals, but only how bad information effects the population. So, the only thing evolution need explain in this case is how erectile dysfunction can accumulate within a population. And, we can simply say that natural selection would tend to remove erectile dysfunction from a population (except, as Granny Magda mentioned, where it is a post-reproductive effect).

But, there’s a catch: humans have learned how to combat the forces of natural selection by learning how to get plants and livestock to produce more food, allowing people to survive fatal diseases and disorders, and, as you’ve noted, reproduce with dysfunctional genitalia. Nature is not choosing who gets to reproduce: individuals are choosing for themselves. So, obviously, this is not an example of “natural selection,” but of “personal selection.”

So, the moral of the story is that you shouldn't take anything that happens to humans these days as having anything to do with biological evolution.

-----

1 I personally don’t like the term “information” because of the can of worms it opens for most creationist/IDists, but it’s generally the easiest way to relate, so I sucked it up for this message.


-Bluejay

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Peg, posted 12-03-2008 5:33 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 4:56 AM Blue Jay has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 64 days)
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 8 of 55 (490260)
12-03-2008 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Percy
12-03-2008 8:22 AM


Re: And the Prize For Most Bizarre Topic Title Goes Too...
Hi Percy,

I promoted the topic because it mentions the relatively recent phenomenon of decreasing fertility among young men.

I was under the impression that the usual explanation for that was the effects of pollutants. Oestrogen, metals and various synthetics from plastics are the usual suspects. Their effect would not be much to do with evolution, but rather environment, especially exposure during embryonic development.

Mutate and Survive

Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.


"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Percy, posted 12-03-2008 8:22 AM Percy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by rueh, posted 12-03-2008 11:50 AM Granny Magda has responded

    
rueh
Member (Idle past 1834 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 9 of 55 (490263)
12-03-2008 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Granny Magda
12-03-2008 10:49 AM


Re: And the Prize For Most Bizarre Topic Title Goes Too...
Hello Granny Magda
GM writes:

Their effect would not be much to do with evolution, but rather environment,

Correct me if I am wrong here, but aren't the two linked. Enviroment being the driving mechanism along with selection for evolution. This could be a case where, because of the envirmonetal pollutants that we expose ourselves to. That only the people whose genes are least affected by said enviromental pressure continue to breed. I know this is a stretch of the imagination, but given enough time we may see people who are less affected by the pollutants?


'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Granny Magda, posted 12-03-2008 10:49 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Granny Magda, posted 12-05-2008 10:00 AM rueh has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3103 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 10 of 55 (490375)
12-04-2008 4:56 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Blue Jay
12-03-2008 9:38 AM


Re: Evolution by Personal Selection
=bluejaySo, the moral of the story is that you shouldn't take anything that happens to humans these days as having anything to do with biological evolution.

interesting conclusion bluejay

i dont really know much about biological evolution so i'll have to read up on it

Are you saying that biological evolution doesnt happen anymore, or just that there are too many factors that can cause similar effects??


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Blue Jay, posted 12-03-2008 9:38 AM Blue Jay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Huntard, posted 12-04-2008 5:13 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 17 by Blue Jay, posted 12-04-2008 8:31 PM Peg has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3103 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 11 of 55 (490376)
12-04-2008 5:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Granny Magda
12-03-2008 8:19 AM


Re: And the Prize For Most Bizarre Topic Title Goes Too...
GrannyMagda writes:

Erectile dysfunction is one of the many effects of ageing. It tends to happen to older men. ...
Erectile dysfunction doesn't kick in until late in life,

Hi GM,

except that its seen in men as young as their early 20's
1 australian site says that almost 10% of sufferers are in their 20's


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Granny Magda, posted 12-03-2008 8:19 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Larni, posted 12-04-2008 8:02 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 15 by RAZD, posted 12-04-2008 7:17 PM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 26 by Granny Magda, posted 12-05-2008 10:15 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 30 by Rrhain, posted 12-05-2008 8:23 PM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 51 by pesto, posted 12-09-2008 5:18 PM Peg has responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 468 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 12 of 55 (490379)
12-04-2008 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Peg
12-04-2008 4:56 AM


Re: Evolution by Personal Selection
Peg writes:

interesting conclusion bluejay

i dont really know much about biological evolution so i'll have to read up on it

Are you saying that biological evolution doesnt happen anymore, or just that there are too many factors that can cause similar effects??


No. What he is saying is that humans, through our technology, are no longer subjet to the driving force of evolution, natural selection.

And yes, read up on evolution, but please, don't go to creationist websites, go to scientific ones.


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 4:56 AM Peg has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Percy, posted 12-04-2008 7:36 AM Huntard has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18498
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 13 of 55 (490397)
12-04-2008 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Huntard
12-04-2008 5:13 AM


Re: Evolution by Personal Selection
Huntard writes:

No. What he is saying is that humans, through our technology, are no longer subjet to the driving force of evolution, natural selection.

More accurately, those human populations with access to the necessary technology can render themselves immune to some forces of selection.

Interestingly, a recent genetic analysis of human populations indicated that Homo sapiens are evolving more rapidly today than in the past. If this finding holds up, one possibly valid implication is that our technologically altered environment is feeding back on our evolution.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Huntard, posted 12-04-2008 5:13 AM Huntard has not yet responded

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3976
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 14 of 55 (490401)
12-04-2008 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
12-04-2008 5:00 AM


Re: And the Prize For Most Bizarre Topic Title Goes Too...
One reason for erectile dysfunction is anxiety disorders.

Nothing directly to do with evolution but there you go.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 5:00 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19890
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 15 of 55 (490451)
12-04-2008 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Peg
12-04-2008 5:00 AM


perhaps it is a natural reaction
Hey Peg, interesting question

except that its seen in men as young as their early 20's
1 australian site says that almost 10% of sufferers are in their 20's

That still leaves plenty of males to fertilize females, so evolutionarily speaking it would not normally be a problem. Only if you combine this with a behavior pattern of mating can it result in decreased birth rates.

Of course one very simple explanation is that it is a reaction to overpopulation.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Peg, posted 12-04-2008 5:00 AM Peg has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by subbie, posted 12-04-2008 7:56 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 27 by Granny Magda, posted 12-05-2008 10:24 AM RAZD has responded

  
1
234Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019