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Author Topic:   A Creationists Definition of Evolution.
Brian
Member (Idle past 4987 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 1 of 14 (67179)
11-17-2003 5:31 PM


I opened this in the faint hope that the Zealot would post his definition of evolution.
The Zealot claims to have done 'a lot of research on evolution' yet appears to have no idea what evolution actually is. For example, he claims that he rejects evolution because it doesn't explain the origin of life, this seems such a basic misunderstanding that I am thinking that he hasn't studied evolution at all.
There is also the horrific thought that the Zealot has rejected scientific fact based on a misunderstanding, he rejects evolution because it fails to explain something that it doesn't set out to explain.
Think of all the wasted time, it is heartbreaking.
I am of the opinion that I am the least scientifically minded of the evolutionists at this site, so I think that the Zealot has an easy target here, prove to me Zealot that evolution if false, furthermore, prove to me that you have a clue what you are talking about.
Finally, how many other creationists out there have rejected evolution without understanding the basics of evolution, do you simply reject it because you have been taught that it is evil and negates creation?
Brian.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by JIM, posted 11-17-2003 6:03 PM Brian has not replied
 Message 3 by judge, posted 11-22-2003 6:41 AM Brian has replied
 Message 5 by DaVx0r, posted 12-01-2003 8:28 PM Brian has not replied

  
JIM
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 14 (67196)
11-17-2003 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
11-17-2003 5:31 PM


Good opinion, Brian.
Finally, how many other creationists out there have rejected evolution without understanding the basics of evolution, do you simply reject it because you have been taught that it is evil and negates creation?
I believe that would be the modern founder of Evolution, not Darwin, but Lucifer himself.
quote:
"In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."
- Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986
Evolution is a process that results in heritable changes in a population spread over many generations. I don't think Zealot understands that.
[This message has been edited by JIM, 11-17-2003]

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judge
Member (Idle past 6471 days)
Posts: 216
From: australia
Joined: 11-11-2002


Message 3 of 14 (68522)
11-22-2003 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
11-17-2003 5:31 PM


Brian:
Finally, how many other creationists out there have rejected evolution without understanding the basics of evolution, do you simply reject it because you have been taught that it is evil and negates creation?
Judge:
Everyone has the same definition of evolution. The question is this. Does evolution happen only in ways that we actually observe in time and space (e.g speciation) or does it also happen in ways that have never ever been observed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 11-17-2003 5:31 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Brian, posted 11-22-2003 7:38 AM judge has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4987 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 4 of 14 (68523)
11-22-2003 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by judge
11-22-2003 6:41 AM


Hi Judge,
I am sorry but I disagree with this:
Everyone has the same definition of evolution.
I agree that the definition is available to evryone, but not everyone understands it.
The idea behind this thread was that a creationist has rejected evolution partly because evolution doesn't explain how life originated. We know that is not what evolution sets out to do, I was concerned that someone has rejected evolution because it fails to explain something that it did not intend to explain.
The question is this. Does evolution happen only in ways that we actually observe in time and space (e.g speciation) or does it also happen in ways that have never ever been observed.
Yes, I agree with what you are saying here, but that evolution happens is not in dispute, it is the mechanism behind that is.
What I was hoping here was that the creationist would give his definition of what he thinks evolution is in an attempt to ascertain why he rejects it. The only reason he gave when I had opened this thread was that it didn't explain how life began.
What I was thinking was 'imaganine rejecting something when you do not know even know its basics.'
Anyway, he has indicated on another thread that he has no desire to debate on anything to do with evolution, apparently it is pointless.
Brian.

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DaVx0r
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 14 (70388)
12-01-2003 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
11-17-2003 5:31 PM


quote:
Finally, how many other creationists out there have rejected evolution without understanding the basics of evolution, do you simply reject it because you have been taught that it is evil and negates creation?
Nope. I have a strong understanding of the evolutionary theory. I had not been taught it was "evil" at all. In fact, I was taught that it was the truth. But, to me, it seemed so illogical, and as I grew older I realized contradictory the whole theory is. So no, I have always understood the theory of evolution, and have rejected it with knowledge of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 11-17-2003 5:31 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by sidelined, posted 12-01-2003 10:00 PM DaVx0r has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5936 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 6 of 14 (70443)
12-01-2003 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by DaVx0r
12-01-2003 8:28 PM


DaVxOr
Nope. I have a strong understanding of the evolutionary theory.
Please allows us to hear your understanding of evolution and its theory.
------------------
"Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by DaVx0r, posted 12-01-2003 8:28 PM DaVx0r has replied

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DaVx0r
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 14 (70470)
12-01-2003 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by sidelined
12-01-2003 10:00 PM


quote:
Please allows us to hear your understanding of evolution and its theory.
Well, I obviously don't have the time to give my full knowledge, but I'll summarize it into a few paragraphs.
Basically, Evolution is the change of species over an extremely large period of time. This is caused by a small mutation in the gene of an animal, which is then passed on to its offspring. This change is completely random, and must happen over a number of thousand years depending on the type of mutation.
Evolution can be divided into Macro and Micro Evolutions. The two types differ completely, one being a variation of the species, the others a complete species to species transformation
Micro Evolution, also known as adaptation, is very possible and has been proven. Species will adapt to their surroundings, given time. This is why there are so many types of rabbits, birds, dogs, cats, etc. The different types of animals have adapted to their surroundings for optimum effectiveness.
Macro Evolution, on the other hand, is the theory that one species can become an entirely new species, given even larger amounts of time (billions of years) for even a small change in species. Under Macro Evolution, over years, animals can morph into a more effective species. This is what the theory of evolution is based off of.
The theory of evolution basically states that, after the big bang, proteins and amino acids formed. Through these amino acids and proteins (and a shock from lightning), a small single celled organism was formed. This organism multiplied, and over generations of generations of generations, a mutation occurred. Its replications now contained the mutation. Many more mutations occurred, causing eventual plant and non-plant life. Eventually, the mutations grew so variant that multiple species were formed.
I guess that wasn’t explained too well, but I know and understand a lot more of evolution than that. Well, I suppose every one of you is now going to embowel each of my sentences telling me ways or details I was incorrect on or how I misunderstood something. I’m no expert on it, but I do know more about evolution than the average atheists I know, to say the least.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by NosyNed, posted 12-01-2003 11:38 PM DaVx0r has not replied
 Message 9 by Quetzal, posted 12-03-2003 11:02 AM DaVx0r has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 8 of 14 (70485)
12-01-2003 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by DaVx0r
12-01-2003 10:38 PM


I’m no expert on it, but I do know more about evolution than the average atheists I know, to say the least.
Well, given that the average anyone knows very little I guess your statement might be correct.
I'm not clear if this is the right thread to discuss the actual ToE so I won't go into what is wrong with yours. I suggest you have a look at the Macro and Micro Evolution (now closed) thread. You can open a continuation of that one if you don't understand it.
A number of your statements are factually incorrect.
Another thread that you might want to skim for a starter is:
http://EvC Forum: $50 to anyone who can prove to me Evolution is a lie. -->EvC Forum: $50 to anyone who can prove to me Evolution is a lie.
You will find references to speciation actually happening now not over billions of years.

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 9 of 14 (70744)
12-03-2003 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by DaVx0r
12-01-2003 10:38 PM


I disagree with Nosy that this is the wrong thread to discuss DaVxOr's self-proclaimed extensive knowledge of evolutionary theory. Especially since the Micro-Macro thread is closed due to size limitations.
Basically, Evolution is the change of species over an extremely large period of time. This is caused by a small mutation in the gene of an animal, which is then passed on to its offspring. This change is completely random, and must happen over a number of thousand years depending on the type of mutation.
No, it isn't. Evolution is a quantifiable change in the prevalence of inheritable traits or characteristics in a specific population of organisms over one or more generations. Although mutation is the primary method of generating novel phenotypes, genetic recombination (and occasionally, especially in plants, gene doubling or polyploidy) of existing alleles, genetic drift, and even insertion of retroviral sequences through reverse transcription can also be responsible for this change. It is a stochastic process, and in the main can be considered "random" in the sense that such changes at the genetic level cannot be predicted in advance. However, the principle mechanism of evolution is natural selection = the action of biotic and abiotic environmental factors on the expressed phenotypes. NS operates at the level of the individual organism, and in the main represents factors external to the organism itself. In that sense, these factors are deterministic and hence non-random.
The timeframe needed for this change is dependent on the generation time of the population and the type of genetic change that drives the change in phenotype. In the case of polyploidy in plants, the change can occur in a single generation. Population size also has a significant effect, as mutations or novel traits in large populations tend to become swamped and disappear, whereas such a change in a small population may have a better chance of becoming "fixed" (i.e., spreading throughout the population over time) if it provides a net survival/reproductive advantage. Drift also operates much more rapidly in a small population through purely stochastic means. The size of the mutation is immaterial, as long as the mutant allele can exist for a period of polymorphism with extant alleles in the population until it becomes fixed.
Evolution can be divided into Macro and Micro Evolutions. The two types differ completely, one being a variation of the species, the others a complete species to species transformation.
No it can't, no they don't, and no that's not what the terms mean.
In the first instance, the distinction is wholly arbitrary. In a technical sense, the terms were coined to delimit the patterns obtained from the fossil record from those processes readily observed in living populations. Macroevolution is a description or explanation of the pattern of discontinuity observed when paleontologists examine the record of life over tens of millions of years. It describes the "sudden" (in geological terms) appearance of organisms that appear to represent new lineages at a taxonomic level higher than species (i.e., the "first" representative of a new family or order). However, most of the characteristics of the "new" lineage are ALWAYS traceable to a previous ancestor specimen. Moreover, the discontinuities apparent in the record are justifiably attributable to artifacts of geology and the processes of fossilization. Indeed, numbers of lineages DO show a gradual transition - we have quite a few fossil rich lineages that document the transitions, to the point we can show trilobites, for instance, diversifying over millions of years and ultimately representing four complete taxonomic orders. The point to emphasize here is that
quote:
...all macroevolutionary processes take place in populations and in the genotypes of individuals, and are thus simultaneously microevolutionary processes. (Mayr, E 2001, "What Evolution Is", Basic Books, pg 190)
There is NO fundamental difference between the two terms when used as intended.
The different types of animals have adapted to their surroundings for optimum effectiveness.
Again, incorrect. Different populations adapt to their surroundings to the point they are "good enough", not optimal. If populations were optimally adapted, there would be no record of background extinction, nor would there be any further evolution. As there is no evidence that populations or species are eternal, and are in fact constantly changing in response to environmental factors, an "optimum" adaptation is only theoretical. This is not to say that a given population couldn't achieve something approaching a local optima. However, it is more likely that an optimally adapted population would quickly become extinct due to the ever-changing nature of the biotic and abiotic factors impinging on them.
Macro Evolution, on the other hand, is the theory that one species can become an entirely new species, given even larger amounts of time (billions of years) for even a small change in species. Under Macro Evolution, over years, animals can morph into a more effective species. This is what the theory of evolution is based off of.
This is a strawman version of evolution. As I have pointed out above, populations change gradually over the generations. Given enough generations (and a bit of luck to avoid local, regional, or mass extinction events), populations that develop divergeant characteristics from the parent population can diversify quite easily into new species. These new species, again over a sufficient number of generations, may have diverged to the point that, in reference to the parent population, they no longer can realistically be classified in the same genus. With even more time, the changes accumulate to the point where the daughter lineage may more properly be categorized into a new family or even order (c.f., trilobites). Meanwhile of course, there is nothing to preclude either the parent OR daughter species from splitting again, and again, and again.
Alternatively, the parent or one or more of the daughter species may become extinct. Picture this: species A -> species B -> species C -> D (where "->" equates to a speciation event, or as you would say, microevolution). If all of the A through D species are living contemporaneously, it's relatively easy to see the small scale transitions - a nice line of begats between A and D. However, suppose A and D continue, and B and C become extinct. All of a sudden you have a major (macroevolutionary) discontinuity in the record. A and D are really divergeant, and might be classified in completely novel genera or families. Worse yet, what happens if C lived in a place where fossilization was unlikely, and we never find it? Now we have an even greater apparent discontinuity - a huge gap between A and D with nothing even resembling a transitional to fill it. However, the "macroevolutionary gap" is only apparent - not real.
The theory of evolution basically states that, after the big bang, proteins and amino acids formed. Through these amino acids and proteins (and a shock from lightning), a small single celled organism was formed. This organism multiplied, and over generations of generations of generations, a mutation occurred. Its replications now contained the mutation. Many more mutations occurred, causing eventual plant and non-plant life. Eventually, the mutations grew so variant that multiple species were formed.
This is so totally bizarre, and so totally wrong, I don't even know where to start. You've conflated cosmology with a really wacked abiogenesis strawman with the formation of the first cell (which occured quite a while after the chemical transition to protolife) with a misunderstanding of mutation, speciation, etc. You've even lumped all life into plant - non/plant (ever heard of bacteria? Archaea? etc). You need to either completely re-write this paragraph, expand it (and support it), or admit you don't have the first clue about evolutionary theory - or even biology.
guess that wasn’t explained too well, but I know and understand a lot more of evolution than that. Well, I suppose every one of you is now going to embowel each of my sentences telling me ways or details I was incorrect on or how I misunderstood something. I’m no expert on it, but I do know more about evolution than the average atheists I know, to say the least.
Who needs to quibble over details? You have so many fundamental conceptual errors here that details are irrelevant. You're even less of an expert on the subject than my 12-year-old daughter. And she's a theist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by DaVx0r, posted 12-01-2003 10:38 PM DaVx0r has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by DaVx0r, posted 12-03-2003 8:25 PM Quetzal has replied

  
DaVx0r
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 14 (70888)
12-03-2003 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Quetzal
12-03-2003 11:02 AM


quote:
she's a theist.
I feel bad for her... Didn't even have the chance to chose between the truth and evolution....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Quetzal, posted 12-03-2003 11:02 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by mark24, posted 12-03-2003 8:27 PM DaVx0r has not replied
 Message 12 by Brian, posted 12-04-2003 4:07 AM DaVx0r has not replied
 Message 13 by NoBody, posted 12-04-2003 5:53 AM DaVx0r has not replied
 Message 14 by Quetzal, posted 12-04-2003 8:02 AM DaVx0r has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5223 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 11 of 14 (70889)
12-03-2003 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by DaVx0r
12-03-2003 8:25 PM


That's it?

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4987 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 12 of 14 (70929)
12-04-2003 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by DaVx0r
12-03-2003 8:25 PM


I feel bad for you.
You are apparently another creationist who has rejected evolution withou gaining a basic understanding of the subject.
Do you have any intention of perhaps studying evolution and then making a more informed choice?
It appears to me that creationists simply reject evolution because they have been told to by others who have no idea what they are talking about.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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NoBody
Guest


Message 13 of 14 (70936)
12-04-2003 5:53 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by DaVx0r
12-03-2003 8:25 PM


Ok Davxor,
Please come to this thread and give your ideas. Stand up for creationism.
http://EvC Forum: Scientific Method Applied To Creation -->EvC Forum: Scientific Method Applied To Creation
------------------
But Who Am I?
NoBody
[This message has been edited by NoBody, 12-04-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5900 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 14 of 14 (70944)
12-04-2003 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by DaVx0r
12-03-2003 8:25 PM


she's a theist.
I feel bad for her... Didn't even have the chance to chose between the truth and evolution....
Your reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. I said she's a theist - as in a believer in the Christian God who also accepts (so far) the evidence she's been presented and/or seen for herself of evolution as the best explanation for the diversity of life on this planet. IOW, she's tending toward a theistic evolutionist position. I blame her mother...
Now, would you care to address the substance of my post? After all, you're the one who proclaimed you knew so much about evolutionary theory. Let's see - how did you put it? Oh yeah:
I have a strong understanding of the evolutionary theory...But, to me, it seemed so illogical, and as I grew older I realized contradictory the whole theory is. So no, I have always understood the theory of evolution, and have rejected it with knowledge of it.
and
I’m no expert on it, but I do know more about evolution than the average atheists I know, to say the least.
Being what I would consider to be an "average atheist", I would be delighted to have you set me straight. Please share your extensive knowledge of evolution with me. You could start by showing how the information provided in my post was in error. Let me start you out - rereading it I realized that I had equated gene doubling with polyploidy - that is incorrect. The statement should read "chromosome doubling" rather than gene doubling. (It was too late to post an edit when I noticed the mistake. Type in haste, repent in leisure.) See - even I can find mistakes in the post. I'm sure one with such advanced knowledge of the topic as you profess should be able to do better. Go for it.

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