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Author Topic:   Bat evolution?
ironic_lettuce
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 6 (32668)
02-19-2003 11:54 AM


Hi
My friend asked me a question that I can't answer involving evolution. He asked me how bats could have evolved and all I know is they are supposed to have evolved from shrews. But he doesnt understand how they could have because the transition from living in a normal shrew environment to living upside down in a cave with wings is quite a leap!!
If anyone can shed any light on this I would be very grateful. (only evolutionary theories please because he doesn't believe in God! )

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by David unfamous, posted 02-19-2003 12:47 PM ironic_lettuce has not replied
 Message 4 by Coragyps, posted 02-19-2003 9:40 PM ironic_lettuce has not replied
 Message 5 by Primordial Egg, posted 02-20-2003 4:12 AM ironic_lettuce has not replied

  
David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 6 (32673)
02-19-2003 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ironic_lettuce
02-19-2003 11:54 AM


A membrane mutation, though not yet a wing, could act as a glider or simply give wind resistance when falling from trees, thus upping the survival chances.
As for living upside down in caves, the Bat is absolutely useless when grounded. They can't take off! This could explain the instinct to sleep and perch up high out of dangers reach. Grounded Bats certainly don't survive for long.
Just a few ideas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ironic_lettuce, posted 02-19-2003 11:54 AM ironic_lettuce has not replied

  
Mike Holland
Member (Idle past 512 days)
Posts: 179
From: Sydney, NSW,Auistralia
Joined: 08-30-2002


Message 3 of 6 (32703)
02-19-2003 9:13 PM


Try not to look at it as a single change, but think of intermediate steps. For example, flying squirrels are still happy running about on the ground and along branches. Flying foxes sleep hanging in trees and do not use caves. Nocturnal activity and caves would be adopted to avoid predators. But I can't think why they would take to sleeping hanging upside down. Any ideas out there?
Mike

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 763 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 4 of 6 (32708)
02-19-2003 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ironic_lettuce
02-19-2003 11:54 AM


My understanding is that bats aren't particularly closely related to shrews at all, though I've seen it said that they have a "shrew-like ancestor." It helps not at all that there are about four different families of mammals called "shrews" - tree shrews are related to primates, elephant shrews to aardvarks, plain ol' shrews to moles....and that the fossil record of bats is pretty sparse, too.
A lot of work seems to be in progress on the relationships among mammals in general: Science, 291, 1786 and 294, 2348, both from 2001, might be places to start.
And there are a variety of critters that "fly" to some degree - even a small snake from SE Asia that has a flattish body and squirms through the air to be a better airfoil.

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 Message 1 by ironic_lettuce, posted 02-19-2003 11:54 AM ironic_lettuce has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 6 (32718)
02-20-2003 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ironic_lettuce
02-19-2003 11:54 AM


Hi Ironic,
This article is quite good (found it here) - it suggests that bats were originally arboreal insect eaters....
Evolving the ability to fly required a complex change in anatomy of the animals that became bats. Most researchers believe that bats and primates evolved from arboreal insect eaters, and that bats went through a gliding stage. The wings of bats can be thought of as two sections, the membranes supported by the arms and the membrane supported by the fingers provides the thrust and maneuverability. We can speculate that the membrane in the arms evolved first, and this would have been sufficient to glide from tree to tree with. For arboreal animals gliding uses less energy and is safer than climbing down the tree, crossing the ground between trees, and climbing back up another tree. Types of lizards, marsupials, and squirrels have all evolved gliding membranes. Bats would have preyed on insects, and animals that could control their direction would have had a selective advantage so the hand wings that define the Chiropterans would have evolved rapidly. Flight probably evolved before sophisticated echolocation, but it is clear that the latter was evolving early on in the history of bats and that this ability facilitated the diversification of bats into the hundreds of niches that they occupy today.
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ironic_lettuce, posted 02-19-2003 11:54 AM ironic_lettuce has not replied

Replies to this message:
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David unfamous
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 6 (32733)
02-20-2003 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Primordial Egg
02-20-2003 4:12 AM


Fabulous site:
Bat Conservation International / Ending Bat Extinctions Worldwide
"Nealry 1000 species of Bats .. a quarter of all species of mammals"
Amazing little critters!
[This message has been edited by David unfamous, 02-20-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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