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Author Topic:   Side Issue: Whale Fossils and Tar Preservation
Modulous
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Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 1 of 2 (258614)
11-10-2005 4:12 PM


In Yaro's post: Why do we only find fossils? I drew randman into debate about whales (my bad, sorry Yaro). So, after Yaro rightly requested we take it elsewhere I have decided to make a PNT.
This is essentially a repost of my central post, which has not yet been fully addressed. I'm hoping randman can take this opportunity to help us understand his position by telling me what he agrees with, and what he disagrees with.
Any thoughts from people who agree with him would be heartily welcomed.

The basic premise is that we see an enormous variety of organisms preserved in a tar pit, but no dinosaurs. There are lots of Dinosaur fossils in that area, but none of the dinosaurs got trapped in the tar.
Anyway, comparisons to the arguments regarding the absense of whale transitionals were made and we ended up with the following.


So, the quotes are randman's stating his position, in regards to my statement:
quote:
We do not know that some of the transitional whales existed in a certain area in signifant numbers
He starts with:
We do see Basilosaurus for example in large numbers
Yes, OK, we have evidence that Basilosaurus existed in those areas in significant numbers.
we see whales in large numbers
OK, we have evidence that modern whales existed in those areas.
we don't see the in-between species
OK, so we don't have any evidence that these in-between species existed in these areas in significant numbers.
That a distant ancestor and the modern animal exists in the area is not evidence that the in-between species existed there as well. Actually, if a population was to become isolated it would probably start that by being located in a geographically dissimilar place than its parent population, so it would be quite unusual to see all the transitions in the same area.
I think that is what I was saying when I said:
quote:
We do not know that some of the transitional whales existed in a certain area in signifant numbers
You are merely guessing that they were there, with no evidence to support that.
You say, well, we don't see dinosaurs in the tar pits so they probably were not alive then
Yes, and I believe that you say that too.
but the fact we don't see the transitionals is to you evidence not that did not exist, but evidence in some twisted fashion that they must have existed anyway.
Let's go over this again:
  1. Dinosaurs were abundant in area x at time a
  2. Lots of organisms were preserved in tar at area x at time b
  3. Not one dinosaur was preserved in tar at area x
    Conclusion: Dinosaurs were not abundant in area x at time b
  4. Lots of Basilosaurus were preserved as fossils in areas 1
  5. Only about 8 whale transitions have been found from the start of basilosaurus to modern whales, in small numbers in areas 1
    Conclusion: Either whale transitionals were not abundant in areas 1 or they existed in those areas at a time when those areas were not conducive to fossilization and long time preservation.
I'm not having it 'both ways'. I'm applying the same argument both times.
Once we agree here, we need to agree that a tar pit is an area very conducive to preservation. Then we are close to finally coming to full agreement, so let's see how far we get.

I generally dislike PNTs that are structured like this, but in the interests of sanity and thread preservation, I thought it best. Any Admin thoughts, or is this OK? Biological Evolution would seem the ideal place.
This message has been edited by Modulous, Thu, 10-November-2005 09:24 PM

  
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Message 2 of 2 (258628)
11-10-2005 4:38 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
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