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Author Topic:   Is this tree leaf evolution?
straightree
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 1 of 20 (485131)
10-05-2008 11:58 AM


Since English is not my mother language, please, excuse possible errors.

If you look into my avatar (you may use my "profile" for a better definition), you will see a tree leaf. If you have some interest in nature and botanics, you will notice that it is a compound leaf, but the leaflets are not identical. This comes from a tree that belongs to the Aceraceae family (maples).

Now my question is: Is this evolution in working?. If you think "yes", explain reasons why. The same if you thing the answer is "no". Your explenations will be appreciated.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added the "tree leaf" part to the topic title.


Creationism and evolutionism should not be mutually excluding.

Replies to this message:
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 Message 16 by Rahvin, posted 10-08-2008 4:19 PM straightree has not yet responded
 Message 18 by lillywilliam, posted 10-14-2008 6:03 AM straightree has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 2 of 20 (485197)
10-06-2008 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by straightree
10-05-2008 11:58 AM


Could you describe what you'd like to discuss in a little bit more detail, because the question as you have phrased it has a very simple answer: evolution happens during reproduction, not growth. What is it you'd actually like to discuss?


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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straightree
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 3 of 20 (485209)
10-06-2008 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
10-06-2008 9:05 AM


When I pruned this tree, an Acer Negundo that has grown by itself in a wallnut plantation, I realized that the leaves, contrary to what I am used to see, (and I have pruned many trees), where quite different betwen them. I have more pictures, and expect to put them in a place that can be reached by Internet.

Aceraceae species, in general, have lobed leaves. There are some exceptions, like Acer Negundo, that has composed leaves. The more I look to the pictures I have of these leaves, the more I think Acer Negundo is in the way of evolving versus lobed leaves.

My opinion is that this evolving process is possible, but would like to check it with more informed forum members.

I am not completely in accordance with your statement, that evolution only happens during reproduction, but I do not want to go deep into that debate for the time being.


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 6 by Blue Jay, posted 10-06-2008 1:07 PM straightree has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12653
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 4 of 20 (485214)
10-06-2008 11:50 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 20 (485221)
10-06-2008 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by straightree
10-06-2008 11:11 AM


Aceraceae species, in general, have lobed leaves. There are some exceptions, like Acer Negundo, that has composed leaves. The more I look to the pictures I have of these leaves, the more I think Acer Negundo is in the way of evolving versus lobed leaves.

It seems that you're trying to propse this leaf as comming from some transitional species. Right?

I have more pictures, and expect to put them in a place that can be reached by Internet.

Look up "Photobucket" or "ImageShack" for hosting sites that you can link too.

I'd like to see the pictures of what you think the leaves should look like.

We don't really ever get into plant evolution here.

Have you read up on Aceraceae and how they relate to Sapindaceae?

You should also read up on Acer negundo because according to that page it seems to be in the Sapindaceae family as opposed to the aceraceae one. But then, according to the page an acer:

quote:
Acer (maple) is a genus of trees or shrubs. They are variously classified in a family of their own, the Aceraceae, or (together with the Hippocastanaceae) included in the family Sapindaceae. Modern classifications, including the Angiosperm Phylogeny Group classification, favour inclusion in Sapindaceae.

So who really knows?


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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 1041 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 6 of 20 (485225)
10-06-2008 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by straightree
10-06-2008 11:11 AM


Hi, Straightree.

Welcome to EvC!

straightree writes:

The more I look to the pictures I have of these leaves, the more I think Acer negundo is in the way of evolving versus lobed leaves.

Is there an advantage in changing the shape of the leaves?

If not, it could not have evolved by natural selection. It may have evolved through genetic drift, which is basically random happenstance.


-Bluejay

Darwin loves you.


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straightree
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 7 of 20 (485275)
10-06-2008 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
10-06-2008 12:26 PM


The pictures have already been placed at Photobucked, at this address
http://s412.photobucket.com/albums/pp205/straightree/Acer%20Negundo/.

Catholic Scientist, thank you for the information.


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Replies to this message:
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 Message 9 by Percy, posted 10-07-2008 10:59 AM straightree has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 20 (485318)
10-07-2008 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by straightree
10-06-2008 6:22 PM


The pictures have already been placed at Photobucked, at this address
http://s412.photobucket.com/albums/pp205/straightree/Acer%20Negundo/.
Catholic Scientist, thank you for the information.

Welcome to EvC.

So... what is the problem with the leaves that makes you think of evolution?


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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 19111
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 9 of 20 (485321)
10-07-2008 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by straightree
10-06-2008 6:22 PM


I think I see understand your question now. You're wondering if you've caught evolution in the act.

If you're observing changes from one generation to the next, then possibly you're observing evolution in action. It's also possible that you're just observing leaf forms within the normal range of variation for that species.

If you're observing changes in the leaves of the same plant during its lifetime, then this is not evolution.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by straightree, posted 10-07-2008 3:26 PM Percy has responded

  
straightree
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 10 of 20 (485340)
10-07-2008 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
10-07-2008 10:27 AM


I am going to speculate. I know that it is dangerous, but at least it is not harmful.

Almost all Aceraceae have lobed leaves. Acer Negundo has compound leaves, but they are not like most compound leaves you will find. Fraxinus (ash trees) have compound leaves that look all the same. It is also that way with Juglans (walnut tree), castanea (chestnut tree) or any one I have ever found in forest.

If you look at maple lobed leaves, it is not difficult to imagine that they were compound leaves many years in the past. If you consider a compound leave, like the ones of Acer Negundo, and supress the connecting stems between leaflets, you come to have a lobed leaf. The number of lobes generally found in maples, three, five, seven, is coincident with the number of leaflets found in my pictures of Acer Negundo.

Also, you will see that some of the leaflets in the pictures are lobed, some of them assimetrically. So it seems like Acer Negundo leaves are not at rest, not stabilized yet, in a transitional stage.

What do you think?


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straightree
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 11 of 20 (485341)
10-07-2008 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Percy
10-07-2008 10:59 AM


Yes, most probably what I have seen is leaf forms inside the normal range found in Acer Negundo. Nevertheless, I think the speculations in my answer to Catholic Scientiest have some meaning.

By the way, what is the procedure for quoting any part of your message?


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 20 (485344)
10-07-2008 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by straightree
10-07-2008 3:11 PM


What do you think?

I think that some of the leaves don't look like maple leaves....

Like this one:


Click to enlarge

Did they all come from the same tree?

and this one:


Click to enlarge

...looks like it came from some kind of freak.

So, looking it up on wiki I see:

quote:
Unlike most other maples (which usually have simple, palmately lobed leaves), Acer negundo has pinnately compound leaves that usually have three to seven leaflets. Simple leaves are also occasionally present; technically, these are single-leaflet compound leaves. Although some other maples (such as A. griseum, Acer mandshuricum and the closely-related A. cissifolium) have trifoliate leaves, only A. negundo regularly displays more than three leaflets.

So yeah... might just be a normal tree.

Also, you will see that some of the leaflets in the pictures are lobed, some of them assimetrically. So it seems like Acer Negundo leaves are not at rest, not stabilized yet, in a transitional stage.

For something to not be evolving it is said that it is in stasis.

Technically, all species are in a constant flux, check out genetic drift, so they are always in a transitional stage. You seem to think that stasis is the default but its not.

Check out this that I found too:


Click to enlarge

Neat, huh?


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Replies to this message:
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straightree
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 13 of 20 (485357)
10-07-2008 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Blue Jay
10-06-2008 1:07 PM


For me, the only advantage I can think of is aesthetics, quite important to me, but I do not know for Acer Negundo.

Thank you for the genetic drift info.


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Percy
Member
Posts: 19111
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 14 of 20 (485411)
10-08-2008 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by straightree
10-07-2008 3:26 PM


straighttree writes:

By the way, what is the procedure for quoting any part of your message?

When typing a new message, look to the immediate left of the message box. Click on the "help" link next to "dBCodes On". That will tell you everything you need to know.

You can also click on the "peek" button that appears beneath this message. This will display the raw text, revealing how I produced the quote box.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by straightree, posted 10-07-2008 3:26 PM straightree has not yet responded

  
straightree
Member (Idle past 3094 days)
Posts: 57
From: Near Olot, Spain
Joined: 09-26-2008


Message 15 of 20 (485454)
10-08-2008 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
10-07-2008 3:41 PM


quote:
Did they all come from the same tree?

Yes, all were collected by myself from a single tree. This species is not very common in Spain, because it is native from USA. Here is used for gardens and parks, so some seed was carried by the wind to my plantation.

quote:
So yeah... might just be a normal tree.

Most probably it is.

quote:
Technically, all species are in a constant flux, check out genetic drift, so they are always in a transitional stage. You seem to think that stasis is the default but its not.

This could be the solution to my question. So for me, and for the time beeing this thread could be closed. I will document myself more extensively in the subject of genetic drift of species, and will look for some information on maples evolution. If I find some problem will ask for reopening the thread.

Thank you for your help.


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