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Author Topic:   Evolution and paranormal things
redwolf
Member (Idle past 5791 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 1 of 49 (104809)
05-02-2004 11:17 PM


I would like to propose a new thread/topic.
As difficult as it would be for things like flight feathers, whalebone, or marine sonar to evolve, there is a class of things which would be significantly more difficult, and these are things which are typically classified as "paranormal".
In at least one group of instances i.e. the work of Rupert Sheldrake, some of these phenomena have been studied more rigorously than in the past, using good experimental design and statistical methodology. Granted Sheldrake is public enemy #1 to the CSICOP crowd, his methods are unassailable and his credentials are simply better than those of anybody connected to CSICOP.
There are other instances of such things in the news these days as well. The question becomes, how would any of these "paranormal" capabilities "evolve"?

Replies to this message:
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AdminSylas
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 49 (104832)
05-03-2004 12:23 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 49 (104840)
05-03-2004 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by redwolf
05-02-2004 11:17 PM


The question becomes, how would any of these "paranormal" capabilities "evolve"?
Random mutation and natural selection.
Duh.
If you want to get more specific, then you need to explain the exact mechanism for how these abilities function.

This message is a reply to:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 4 of 49 (104892)
05-03-2004 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by redwolf
05-02-2004 11:17 PM


Good credentials
It is completely non-relevant to the quality of the work Sheldrake has produced but I'm not convinced that his credentials are superior to those of anyone affiliated to CSICOP. This is a page listing the Fellows associated with CSICOP, which includes at least a couple of Nobel laureates.
TTFN,
WK

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redwolf
Member (Idle past 5791 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 5 of 49 (105164)
05-04-2004 9:13 AM


Reincarnation
I don't have any particular reason to believe or disbelieve in reincarnation. Nonetheless, something which appears for all the world to be a certifiable case of reincarnation has come up in the news (ABC) recently:
http://abcnews.go.com/...time/US/reincarnation_040415-1.html
Now, whether or not you'd argue that this was or wasn't reincarnation, SOMETHING appears to be happening here. Possibilities would seem to include:
  • A large scale and complex fraud, which does not sound likely given what you read. There does not appear to be any obvious motive for it (fraud usually involves profit motives).
  • The kid actually has been reincarnated.
  • The kid, somehow or other, his mind acting like a radio antenna, has picked up some sort of a signal still floating around at large in the universe, leftover from WW-II.
Now, I wouldn't want to HAVE to bet it but, if I had to, my money would be on item 3. Nonetheless, either of the two choices other than fraud would seem to contradict the model of reality which we receive from guys like Darwin, Nietzsche, Marx, Engels et. al, i.e. that there is matter and energy in the universe and **** rolls downhill, and everything we see around us is some manifestation of those two concepts.
The question is, how would this kid's ability to do something like that "evolve", and for what purpose?

Replies to this message:
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 Message 8 by jar, posted 05-04-2004 10:06 AM redwolf has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 6 of 49 (105170)
05-04-2004 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by redwolf
05-04-2004 9:13 AM


Re: Reincarnation
Hang on a second, Red, aren't you a Christian?
Re-incarnation, if true, would prove Christian theology false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by redwolf, posted 05-04-2004 9:13 AM redwolf has replied

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redwolf
Member (Idle past 5791 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 7 of 49 (105173)
05-04-2004 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Jack
05-04-2004 9:41 AM


Re: Reincarnation
Like I say, there are at least two possible explanations other than fraud, and it's not clear that the second such explanation is damaging to Christianity.
The question is, what would something like that do for evolution(ism)?

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 49 (105180)
05-04-2004 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by redwolf
05-04-2004 9:13 AM


Re: Reincarnation
The third and by far the most likely explanation is that the observers have simply totally misread the information and that the kid is simply a kid. So far, all of the evidence appears to be just the parents and adults.
It would have been very easy to test the theory but notice that conveniently, his memories are starting to fade.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by redwolf, posted 05-04-2004 9:13 AM redwolf has replied

Replies to this message:
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redwolf
Member (Idle past 5791 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 9 of 49 (105183)
05-04-2004 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
05-04-2004 10:06 AM


Re: Reincarnation
>It would have been very easy to test the theory but notice that conveniently, his memories are starting to fade.
Who wants to remember getting shot down....

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 Message 8 by jar, posted 05-04-2004 10:06 AM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 49 (105188)
05-04-2004 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by redwolf
05-04-2004 10:15 AM


Re: Reincarnation
Not germain to my post.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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redwolf
Member (Idle past 5791 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 11 of 49 (105263)
05-04-2004 3:18 PM


Bicameral Things
Many if not most paranormal things would fall under the general category of what Julian Jaynes termed "bicameral phenomena". My own take on bicameral phenomena is that they were bound up with static electrical phenomena, which were simply more common in the ancient world than they are now:
http://www.bearfabrique.org/babel.html
And that these kinds of phenomena which are rare now, used to be common. There is reason to believe that the human mind was originally hardwired for a kind of communications capability about as far above our present electronic communications world, as that is above smoke signals.
Again, the question is, how does that sort of thing "evolve"?

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 05-04-2004 3:24 PM redwolf has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 49 (105265)
05-04-2004 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by redwolf
05-04-2004 3:18 PM


Re: Bicameral Things
Is there ANY evidence that static electric phenomena were once common?
But the underlying issue, is so far NO ONE has been able to show that ANY paranormal things exist.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 14 by redwolf, posted 05-04-2004 4:14 PM jar has not replied

  
redwolf
Member (Idle past 5791 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 13 of 49 (105276)
05-04-2004 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
05-04-2004 3:24 PM


Re: Bicameral Things
>>But the underlying issue, is so far NO ONE has been able to show that ANY paranormal things exist.
Not in the sense of saying 'Here is a paranormal thing, right before your very eyes and, as you can plainly see on this handy dandy Cenco scale, it weights 13.2778 pounds.
Nonetheless there are other ways of demonstrating that something exists which are totally valid. The science of statistics as we understand it was developed mainly in our ag-econ (landgrant) schools for the purpose of discerning what effect if any various crop treatments might have on certain crops and that is also something which, despite being totally real, cannot be measured or weighed on scales.
In particular, Sheldrake's use of statistical methodology is entirely sound and, when he tells you that there is a 99.999% certainty that some particular "paranormal" thing is real, he's not making it up.

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redwolf
Member (Idle past 5791 days)
Posts: 185
From: alexandria va usa
Joined: 04-13-2004


Message 14 of 49 (105277)
05-04-2004 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
05-04-2004 3:24 PM


Re: Bicameral Things
>Is there ANY evidence that static electric phenomena were once common?
That is the main focus of a couple of small works by Al DeGrazia and Hugh Crossthwaite, which are available free of charge:
DeGrazia

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 15 of 49 (105278)
05-04-2004 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by redwolf
05-04-2004 4:12 PM


dupe post
[This message has been edited crashfrog, 05-04-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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