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Author Topic:   Splintering our Education System based on FAITH
Silent H
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Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 1 of 110 (194780)
03-27-2005 4:33 AM


In another thread, poster Faith argued that the only solution to the problem of education within the US was to pull children out of public schools and teach them a fully Xian education at home.
The reason she gave was that evolution and other nonXian ideas were pushed within secular public education. She argued that evolution was the same as teaching Xianity in public schools (a violation of church-state issues) because it violated their belief of what actually occured.
I then asked if this would not result in the splintering of education based on all sorts of different beliefs, such that we'd have to allow flat earth belief, nonheliocentruc belief, Newtonian (vs Relativistic) belief, the Holocaust never happened belief, etc etc?
Faith suggested that only the Xians (of one particular flavor) would be allowed to splinter.
I would like Faith to outline her proposed educational system, and explain how it would not collapse into the shambles I detailed.
(I think this should go in the Education forum, but I am open to it being funneled elsewhere)
This message has been edited by holmes, 03-27-2005 04:35 AM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 110 (194814)
03-27-2005 10:27 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Brachinus
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 110 (194823)
03-27-2005 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
03-27-2005 4:33 AM


Holmes, what do you mean by "splintering of education"? Do you mean that colleges would have to accept students with different levels of understanding of mainstream concepts in science, history, etc.? I don't see why they should have to do that.
Or do you mean splintering of secondary education? If so, it's already splintered, simply because there is already home-schooling, "Christian Academies" etc. where evolution and semi-related concepts aren't taught, or are taught only as something bad and wrong.
I agree it's hypocritical to suggest that it's OK for anti-evolutionists to go their own way, but not for Holocaust deniers etc. to do the same, but I'm skeptical about what effects such things would have on education in general.
My wife is a biology professor, and she's had students who were brought up to disbelieve evolution, and some of them turned out to be good students, while others weren't (same as the regular kids).

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 4 of 110 (194834)
03-27-2005 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brachinus
03-27-2005 11:54 AM


Well I guess we have to let Faith outine exactly what she meant. From what she told me, she wanted homeschooling (Xian version) for all children, or at least all of those that were Xian.
The idea of course is that their education would be accredited and they can move on to higher education from there, as if they attended a public school and got a similar education.
Since the factor she identified as important was that the ideas taught in public schools were against the beliefs of Xians, that appears to open the door for everyone else to remove their children based on any other belief system.
When I said "splintering", I was trying to capture the effect this would have on our overall educational "system". Right now it is relatively standardized. If Faith's suggestion occurs, then we'd be accrediting degrees with various different teachings, including wholly opposite facts and assessments of facts.
Thus when a person was said to have a high school education, or equivalent, it would be wholly unknown what the person actually knows about any subject in general. There could be no expectation, including an expectation of preparedness for any future study in a specified subject area.
I actually hadn't thought about what this might eventually mean for colleges, but I suppose if we allow divisions to occur at the high school level, there would be no reason for there to be an end to public (state run) colleges, as they too would teach subject matter beyond the belief system of somebody somewhere (like evolution in biology to Xians). I suppose we could then have total home-schooling.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 5 of 110 (195732)
03-31-2005 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Silent H
03-27-2005 4:33 AM


In another thread, poster Faith argued that the only solution to the problem of education within the US was to pull children out of public schools and teach them a fully Xian education at home.
The reason she gave was that evolution and other nonXian ideas were pushed within secular public education. She argued that evolution was the same as teaching Xianity in public schools (a violation of church-state issues) because it violated their belief of what actually occured.
Not QUITE what I said as I recall. Not that it's a violation of church-state issues as you put it, but that public education is anti-Christian overall, being secular and pluralistic, and can't be anything else, and that forcing any of that, but evolutionism in particular, on the children of Christian parents is the same kind of violation of their rights as forcing creationism would be on those who object to it.
I then asked if this would not result in the splintering of education based on all sorts of different beliefs, such that we'd have to allow flat earth belief, nonheliocentruc belief, Newtonian (vs Relativistic) belief, the Holocaust never happened belief, etc etc?
The education Christian children are increasingly getting at home and in the newer Christian schools is better than public education in every way you would approve, as it is far more rigorous and has much higher standards. There is a movement getting started in some Christian churches to return to a classical education, that seems to have been inspired a great deal by this wonderful essay by Dorothy Sayers in 1947:
The Lost Tools of Learning
Faith suggested that only the Xians (of one particular flavor) would be allowed to splinter.
I'm sure I didn't say such a thing, Holmes. I haven't really given much thought to the overall problem of the public schools, simply to the need for Christians to find an alternative. I'd venture the opinion now, however, that a nation that is dedicated to liberty ought to support liberty in educational matters too. I really doubt it would lead to any of the dire consequences you seem to be imagining, but quite the opposite. The educational level has been only too obviously declining in this country for decades under the public school system, and the kind Christian children are starting to get with these new more rigorous guidelines can only be an immense improvement.
I would like Faith to outline her proposed educational system, and explain how it would not collapse into the shambles I detailed.
Educating some children BETTER than the public schools do can't possibly promote anything but an improvement in the overall quality of education in the nation.
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-31-2005 01:24 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 110 (195734)
03-31-2005 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Silent H
03-27-2005 2:55 PM


Well I guess we have to let Faith outine exactly what she meant. From what she told me, she wanted homeschooling (Xian version) for all children, or at least all of those that were Xian.
I've ONLY mentioned Christian children, Holmes, no others, and homeschooling is one option, but the better option is really good Christian schools, some of which may be just now getting started. Most Christian schools are really no better than the public schools in all the areas that matter to Christian life, so my hope is these new ones will be truly Christian.
The idea of course is that their education would be accredited and they can move on to higher education from there, as if they attended a public school and got a similar education.
In case you are unaware of it, the fact is that homeschooled children generally do MUCH better overall than public schooled children. Existing religious schools have no problem with accreditation so I don't know what you are worried about.
Since the factor she identified as important was that the ideas taught in public schools were against the beliefs of Xians, that appears to open the door for everyone else to remove their children based on any other belief system.
Are you at all aware that the first universities in Europe and America were founded by Christians for the purpose of giving a specifically Christian education, that in fact they aimed to give future pastors a solid liberal education, that prayer and chapel service were part of the curriculum, that Bible was foundational? I'm talking Oxford, Harvard, Yale, Holmes. Are you aware of any of that? What kind of strange idea do you have about a Christian education anyway?
When I said "splintering", I was trying to capture the effect this would have on our overall educational "system". Right now it is relatively standardized. If Faith's suggestion occurs, then we'd be accrediting degrees with various different teachings, including wholly opposite facts and assessments of facts.
You are laboring under a false imagination of your own.
Thus when a person was said to have a high school education, or equivalent, it would be wholly unknown what the person actually knows about any subject in general. There could be no expectation, including an expectation of preparedness for any future study in a specified subject area.
Poppycock. The students I hope Christian schools will start turning out could ace any exam on any subject and think better than the examiners.
I actually hadn't thought about what this might eventually mean for colleges, but I suppose if we allow divisions to occur at the high school level, there would be no reason for there to be an end to public (state run) colleges, as they too would teach subject matter beyond the belief system of somebody somewhere (like evolution in biology to Xians). I suppose we could then have total home-schooling.
There are not NOW any divisions as homeschoolers go on to college and succeed beautifully, and there won't be any more to come. I, however, would be in favor of Christians starting a whole new rigorously Christian university system the way the originally Christian universities were conceived, and do whatever is possible to ensure that it remain Christian and not deteriorate into secularism as the ivy league schools have done. Don't know if that's possible because the level of education in such a school would start attracting secularists anyway.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 7 of 110 (195744)
03-31-2005 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
03-31-2005 12:31 PM


Back to the Future?
In case you are unaware of it, the fact is that homeschooled children generally do MUCH better overall than public schooled children. Existing religious schools have no problem with accreditation so I don't know what you are worried about.
Please back this up with some evidence.
Are you at all aware that the first universities in Europe and America were founded by Christians for the purpose of giving a specifically Christian education, that in fact they aimed to give future pastors a solid liberal education, that prayer and chapel service were part of the curriculum, that Bible was foundational? I'm talking Oxford, Harvard, Yale, Holmes. Are you aware of any of that? What kind of strange idea do you have about a Christian education anyway?
Are you proposing that we go back to the 13th century for education standards?
Poppycock. The students I hope Christian schools will start turning out could ace any exam on any subject and think better than the examiners.
Whether they had studied the subject or not? You have just claimed your christian students will be the equal of god.
What if the examiners were products of this most outstanding education?
Don't know if that's possible because the level of education in such a school would start attracting secularists anyway.
Not unless they're attracted to the monastic life.
Why are not christians doing these things now? What stops you from starting universitys?
{Edited to add Subtitle & "P"}
This message has been edited by DHA, 03-31-2005 01:54 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 8 of 110 (195746)
03-31-2005 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by tsig
03-31-2005 1:49 PM


How about reading the essay by Dorothy Sayers I linked. Nothing you said is worth responding to. Invincible ignorance seems to be the standard of most posters at this website.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 9 of 110 (195747)
03-31-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
03-31-2005 12:31 PM


Details of the Differences
Could you supply some details of the differences in the education that would be given.
My impression is that it would include extreme differences in what would be taught about (carrying it through to the end of first degree level):
Cosmology
Physics (specifically relativity and quantum mechanics)
Geology
Biology (including genetics and including pretty well all sub disciplines)
History (based on other comments )
Some chemistry
It would seem to exclude the graduates of such education from a large number of areas would it not?

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 10 of 110 (195749)
03-31-2005 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
03-31-2005 1:54 PM


The link
Since the link is, I think, in another thread it would be appropriate to include it here.
It is also necessary (based on guidelines) to note the specific points of the essay which are pertinant and why they respond to the points made. If the points are not worth responding to it should be easy to note why. It is not apparent to some observers that they are not worth responding too. It might appear to them that you can't.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 11 of 110 (195750)
03-31-2005 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by tsig
03-31-2005 1:49 PM


Re: Back to the Future?
Your ignorance of the success of homeschoolers is remarkable considering that it is well known. There may be better articles than the following on the subject, I don't know. I did only a cursory search.
http://www.findarticles.com/..._m1282/is_n17_v50/ai_21129273
Homegrown success - Washington Times
404: Page Not Found
This message has been edited by Faith, 03-31-2005 02:04 PM

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 12 of 110 (195751)
03-31-2005 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
03-31-2005 1:54 PM


How about reading the essay by Dorothy Sayers I linked. Nothing you said is worth responding to. Invincible ignorance seems to be the standard of most posters at this website.
Yes I read the link, that's why I responded the way I did. She is avocating a return to the middle-ages.
Now would you please show me where home-shoolers have better test scores? You are supposed to back assertion with evidence, not name-calling, of course my ignorance is so invincible I might have misuderstood your meaning.
IKf it was'nt worth responding to then why did you?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 110 (195752)
03-31-2005 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by tsig
03-31-2005 2:06 PM


Yes I read the link, that's why I responded the way I did. She is avocating a return to the middle-ages.
Oh my, you don't even know what she means, do you? You just had a knee-jerk reaction to the word, didn't you? We certainly DO need a "return to the Middle Ages" in the sense she means it, by the look of the nonsense that is offered up on this site as rational thought. Good grief.

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tsig
Member (Idle past 2909 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 14 of 110 (195753)
03-31-2005 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
03-31-2005 2:01 PM


Re: Back to the Future?
Your ignorance of the success of homeschoolers is remarkable considering that it is well known. There may be better articles than the following on the subject, I don't know. I did only a cursory search.
Cross posted, probaably due to my ignorance, will read the links and reply.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 15 of 110 (195754)
03-31-2005 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
03-31-2005 2:01 PM


Homeschooling today and tomorrow
While the first link is an anecdote about a single family and isn't very meaningful the third one, in particular, offers a rather convincing study.
However, it also might cause one to worry about the future. The early homeschoolers would, one might guess, be the more motivated and capable. In fact the study says this:
quote:
The background questionnaires returned for this study reveal that, on average, home school parents have more formal education than parents in the general population, with 88% having continued their education beyond high school compared to 50% for the nation as a whole (Figure 7). Furthermore, almost one in four home school students (24%) has at least one parent who is a certified teacher.
What will happen when the above things are not true.
In addition, it doesn't separate out all the different approaches and aims of home schoolers. As asked earlier what will they be taught in your scenario?

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