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Author Topic:   books
ogon
Member (Idle past 6119 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 1 of 22 (400523)
05-14-2007 2:07 PM


Hi I have just finished reading YOUR BODY by Keith Harrison, and this has been my introduction to the theory of evolution. I am looking for some recommendations or ideas about what I should read next.
The theory of evolution as I read it was quite interesting but not totally convincing. For me it doesn't quite answer the questions, where did I come from, where am I, and where am I going???
any ideas for my next book?
many thanks, OGON

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Parasomnium, posted 05-14-2007 5:51 PM ogon has replied
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 05-15-2007 5:30 PM ogon has not replied
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 05-16-2007 4:37 PM ogon has replied
 Message 14 by Archer Opteryx, posted 05-17-2007 12:49 AM ogon has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 2 of 22 (400538)
05-14-2007 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ogon
05-14-2007 2:07 PM


Book recommendation for Ogon
Hello Ogon,
Welcome to EvC. One book I can highly recommend is "Evolution, The Triumph of an Idea", by Carl Zimmer. There has been a PBS tv-series about evolution to which this book was the companion. It's a highly readable and well illustrated book, and if you're really interested in the subject matter, then I think this book should top your list of books to read. I think you will enjoy it.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ogon, posted 05-14-2007 2:07 PM ogon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ogon, posted 05-15-2007 4:37 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
ogon
Member (Idle past 6119 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 3 of 22 (400609)
05-15-2007 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Parasomnium
05-14-2007 5:51 PM


Re: Book recommendation for Ogon
Hello, thanks for the reply.
I visited my local book shop but they couldn't help me with the book you suggested. Next stop, AMAZON.
I am quite interested in the evolution theory and would like to read up on creation by design. I think that's what it is called?
thanks again, ogon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Parasomnium, posted 05-14-2007 5:51 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Parasomnium, posted 05-15-2007 5:34 PM ogon has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17815
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 4 of 22 (400613)
05-15-2007 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ogon
05-14-2007 2:07 PM


quote:
The theory of evolution as I read it was quite interesting but not totally convincing. For me it doesn't quite answer the questions, where did I come from, where am I, and where am I going???
Evolution is a scientific theory, not a religion or a philosphy so much of that is outside it's scope. It deals with part of "where you come from" in that it includes a lot of the biological history of life. But it says very little about even human history. It doesn't really deal with where you are (unlike geography or even astronomy) or where you're going.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ogon, posted 05-14-2007 2:07 PM ogon has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 5 of 22 (400614)
05-15-2007 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ogon
05-15-2007 4:37 PM


Re: Book recommendation for Ogon
ogon writes:
I am quite interested in the evolution theory and would like to read up on creation by design. I think that's what it is called?
That's a bit puzzling, Ogon. I don't exactly know what you mean when you say "creation by design", at least not if it's supposed to have anything to do with evolution. I'd say evolution and creation by design are two very different things. Can you elaborate?

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ogon, posted 05-15-2007 4:37 PM ogon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by ogon, posted 05-16-2007 11:14 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
ogon
Member (Idle past 6119 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 6 of 22 (400711)
05-16-2007 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Parasomnium
05-15-2007 5:34 PM


Re: Book recommendation for Ogon
Hi, and that's what I meant, sorry I didn't make myself clear!
Yes, it seems to me from my limited reading and knowledge that evolution does have a pretty good hold on how life could have evolved on earth.
BUT, I can't quite accept that evolution can be totally responsible. Especially when it comes to humans.
It's difficult to explain because I'm limited in terms of scientific knowledge and language as to what I can say to get my point over. Intuition plays a part in what I think about how life evolved on earth and I'm not so sure I can credit evolution, as I understand it ,with my intuition!
I also believe that life does and must go on after death. With humans anyway. Now, I can't produce an experiment to prove that somehow I will pass on to the other side can I ? It's down to my intuition.
In this respect, do people who believe in evolution, also believe that life ends with the death of a human? No sensory interaction with the earth so no existance?
So I guess, yes I agree that generally life has evolved on earth, i.e. from fish 2 reptiles 2 primates e.t.c. BUT I can't relate this totally to what it is to be human!
NOW, that is gonna sound like a load of waffle to you so I shall stop there. If by any chance you feel you can answer any of my questions or you have the time to get involved with my enlightenment please feel free.
ogon
Edited by ogon, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Parasomnium, posted 05-15-2007 5:34 PM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 05-16-2007 11:21 AM ogon has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 22 (400715)
05-16-2007 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by ogon
05-16-2007 11:14 AM


Moving from Book recommendations to debate
It looks like you are moving from Book Recommendations to searching for answers to questions.
While the Book Nook is not the place for that, many if not all of your questions can be answered, and also many if not most are unrelated to Evolution.
Maybe you would like to take one or two of them and propose a thread where they can be discussed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ogon, posted 05-16-2007 11:14 AM ogon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by ogon, posted 05-16-2007 4:13 PM jar has replied

  
ogon
Member (Idle past 6119 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 8 of 22 (400768)
05-16-2007 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
05-16-2007 11:21 AM


Re: Moving from Book recommendations to debate
Got da message.
Trouble is being a newcomer I can't work out which forum to post which question into and I think my questions would be too simplistic anyway!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 05-16-2007 11:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 05-16-2007 4:30 PM ogon has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 9 of 22 (400770)
05-16-2007 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ogon
05-16-2007 4:13 PM


Re: Moving from Book recommendations to debate
They all start in Proposed New Topics. Once you post the initial opening posts, the moderators will help you get it formulated and help decide where it fits best.
You have some great questions like :
"In this respect, do people who believe in evolution, also believe that life ends with the death of a human? No sensory interaction with the earth so no existance?"
so give it a try.
As to reading, you might want to give the A Catechism of Creation as a start.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ogon, posted 05-16-2007 4:13 PM ogon has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 22 (400771)
05-16-2007 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ogon
05-14-2007 2:07 PM


For me it doesn't quite answer the questions, where did I come from, where am I, and where am I going???
I imagine your parents can help you with the first, a map can help you with the second, and as for the third, you'll have to answer that yourself. You're on your way to wherever your legs are taking you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ogon, posted 05-14-2007 2:07 PM ogon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by ogon, posted 05-16-2007 5:21 PM crashfrog has replied

  
ogon
Member (Idle past 6119 days)
Posts: 70
Joined: 05-13-2007


Message 11 of 22 (400787)
05-16-2007 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
05-16-2007 4:37 PM


Hi Crashfrog, what I am trying to ask with those 3 questions are:
1. where did I come from?
by that I ask, am I product of evolution? am I a product of Intelligent Design? am I a product of both? OR MORE?
2. where am I?
If evolution is an ongoing process, there was a beginning, Q1.,there is a now Q2., and there has to be an end Q3.
Q2. relates to the NOW part.
If the beginning is 1 o'clock, and the end is midnight, what time is it now?
3. where am I going?
okay, I've been a fish, a reptile, an ape, what's next?
Perhaps I'm just confused?
ogon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 05-16-2007 4:37 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by macaroniandcheese, posted 05-16-2007 7:28 PM ogon has not replied
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 05-16-2007 10:20 PM ogon has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 12 of 22 (400806)
05-16-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ogon
05-16-2007 5:21 PM


3. where am I going?
okay, I've been a fish, a reptile, an ape, what's next?
unless you're very special, i'm quite sure you've only been a people. what's next is your career choice, how you affect lives around you, and how you choose to leave the world: better or worse for your existence. even if there is nothing more for you as an individual, your actions will continue to affect humanity forever, even if you only accomplish very small things. you can't change whether there is a god or how he may or may not have chosen to create or allow life on this planet, or any other, just by choosing what to believe. many people may view this as a let down, but it seems to me that this is very freeing. it's not your responsibility to determine the nature of life, the universe, and everything. you are only responsible for how you decide to interpret the information you are presented with. read more and relax. i promise that choosing wrong is not going to doom you to hell. jesus didn't say anything about salvation depending on believing that the universe was made in six days.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ogon, posted 05-16-2007 5:21 PM ogon has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 22 (400847)
05-16-2007 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ogon
05-16-2007 5:21 PM


by that I ask, am I product of evolution?
You're a product of your parents having sexual intercourse. Hopefully you're old enough to have had that conversation with them? I'm reticent to go into detail on that subject.
If the beginning is 1 o'clock, and the end is midnight, what time is it now?
It doesn't have anything to do with you, personally. You are going to live a hopefully full life and then die. You won't undergo any evolutionary change - you'll just experience the changes of age. Evolution doesn't happen to individuals, so to answer your question - you're exactly where you were when you were born, and you're exactly where you're going to be when you die.
okay, I've been a fish, a reptile, an ape, what's next?
You've been no such thing. You were born a human, you'll live as one, and you'll die as one. Individuals don't undergo evolution; species do. You're a part of that in so much as you're different from your parents (as they were different from theirs.)
Perhaps I'm just confused?
A little bit. If it seems like I'm busting your chops its because scientific understanding only comes about when we ask very specific questions. Yours, because you're phrasing them like deep metaphysical inquiries, are all over the place - and they're all but useless for understanding evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ogon, posted 05-16-2007 5:21 PM ogon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Parasomnium, posted 05-17-2007 4:44 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3588 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 14 of 22 (400863)
05-17-2007 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ogon
05-14-2007 2:07 PM


Annie Dillard
where did I come from, where am I, and where am I going???
any ideas for my next book?
These are not science books, but if those are the questions that interest you, you're not looking for a science book anyway.
Here is a brilliant author whose work is scientifically informed, probing, and unforgettable.
Annie Dillard:
For the Time Being
A contemplation of the human condition.
Pilgrim at Tinker Creek
A contemplation of nature unlike any other.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ogon, posted 05-14-2007 2:07 PM ogon has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 15 of 22 (400874)
05-17-2007 4:44 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by crashfrog
05-16-2007 10:20 PM


ogon writes:
okay, I've been a fish, a reptile, an ape, what's next?
In response,
crashfrog writes:
You've been no such thing. You were born a human, you'll live as one, and you'll die as one. Individuals don't undergo evolution; species do. You're a part of that in so much as you're different from your parents (as they were different from theirs.)
I think, Crashfrog, you're doing Ogon an injustice by taking his obviously metaphorical description of evolutionary development literal and correcting it as such. I think Ogon is asking legitimate questions and deserves appropriate answers (although maybe not in this particular thread), instead of barely concealed contempt. Why else are we on this site? To chase people away? I wouldn't think so.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 05-16-2007 10:20 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 05-17-2007 9:16 AM Parasomnium has replied

  
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