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Author Topic:   Treatment of the Bible as a historical text
Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 56 (120273)
06-30-2004 3:42 AM


Greetings all:
A short story before my point -
During WWI, WWII and Vietnam war, propaganda infiltrated every form of media, vilifying enemy nations/armies and praising the home team (protectors of the innocent, bringers of peace and justice, etc.)
Patriotism (in-group mentality) and discrimination (out-group mentality) run rampant in countries at war as politicians and bureaucrats provoke and amplifies the hatred of civilians to boost morale and promote policies.
Enemies are often portrayed as evil, blood-thirsty monsters (most typically illustrated in posters) who have engaged in some/all forms of foul deeds that demanded the participation of civilians in the eradication of this evil.
Now my point:
If we accept the Christian Bible as a valid historical record written/inspired by God, I would like to know if the portrayal of Satan/Lucifer is biased in much the same way as the Allies viewed the Axis and vice versa.
While many at the time considered Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan as physical manifestations of evil, it should be remembered that they viewed the Allied powers in much the same light. The difference (in my opinion) lies only in the fact that the Allies won the war.
All views welcome.

"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 56 (120283)
06-30-2004 4:43 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1461 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 3 of 56 (120285)
06-30-2004 5:18 AM


no.
biblically, satan is tester of men, a servant of the lord. he's villified here and there, but ultimately only serves god (atleast up until the endtimes, but even this is up for debate, as the satan of revelation probably refers to a specific human being).
lucifer is a mangled translation of heylel, which probably means "morning star" and was a title the hebrews gave the king of babylon. and since it was the child jesus that the babylonian magi bowed down before, lucifer is therefor the proper title of christ.
although, there is much villification of jews in the new testament.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 06-30-2004 04:18 AM

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Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 56 (120308)
06-30-2004 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
06-30-2004 5:18 AM


To Arachnophilia:
So in your opinion, where did the notion of Lucifer being the angel of music and rebel of heaven come from? Who was casted down from the Heavens? Satan was dismissed to Hell from where?
Patiently awaiting your reply.

"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1461 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 5 of 56 (120416)
06-30-2004 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Sleeping Dragon
06-30-2004 8:37 AM


So in your opinion, where did the notion of Lucifer being the angel of music and rebel of heaven come from? Who was casted down from the Heavens? Satan was dismissed to Hell from where?
music? i don't know.
the other bit, nearest i can tell, comes from milton's "paradise lost." i sure can't find it in the bible.
revelation does contain a bit that's similar, but it's at the endtimes, and likely not about the actual satan, but a different tester of christian faith.

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custard
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 56 (120419)
06-30-2004 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Sleeping Dragon
06-30-2004 8:37 AM


So in your opinion, where did the notion of Lucifer being the angel of music and rebel of heaven come from? Who was casted down from the Heavens? Satan was dismissed to Hell from where?
The Silmarillion.

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 868 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 7 of 56 (120454)
06-30-2004 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Sleeping Dragon
06-30-2004 3:42 AM


Interesting point.
Before human history began (possibly between Gen 1:1 and 1:2), God created the angels. Lucifer was the highest, most beautiful, most powerful angel. Sometime later he commited the first sin of arrogance. He said, "I will be like the Most High" and then led a rebellion in which approx. 1/3 of all angels followed him as "god". God judged him and his angels and sentenced him to the lake of fire, but apparently he said, "You're not being fair". So God showed him and all angels his fairness. He created Adam and Eve and duplicated the situation before Satan's fall by placing the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden providing the test of their volition to choose either for God or against him as Lucifer did. They sinned, but God knew this would happen and provided the redemption solution through Christ to show all the attributes of his character. So throughout human history Satan as the ruler of this world has been offering his evidence that he is "like the Most High". This is why he is called the accuser (see Job and testing of Jesus). He is simultaneously trying to prove he is better than God and that God has violated his character. He does this in many different ways evident in history. Anti-semitism is one. If God cannot keep his promise to Abraham, he is not God. Utopianism: if by his doctrines he can create a perfect environment on earth before Christ does, He will be as good as God. Since God is the author of all truth, he can only create lies and incite violence, which is why he is called the great deceiver. In the tribulation God the H.S. will be taken away from the earth giving Satan free-reign to present his closing arguments. In the Millenium, God will present his closing arguments. At the completion of human history God will carry out his original sentence by sending Satan and all those who follow him by rejecting God into the lake of fire.
This is the basic Biblical view of Satan that can be pieced together from passages that mention him.
If we accept the Christian Bible as a valid historical record written/inspired by God, I would like to know if the portrayal of Satan/Lucifer is biased in much the same way as the Allies viewed the Axis and vice versa.
This is strange premise, because if the Bible is the inspired word of God then the portrayal of Satan/Lucifer as I have outlined it above cannot be biased, but only truth. Now, some churches on the otherhand preaching hellfire and damnation all the time, may engage in "propoganda" saying that Satan is responsible for every sin and evil. Every time someone is being tempted, they may say, "the devil is after me!" which is almost certainly not true. What is "after them" is Satan's doctrines of arrogance and sin.
Apparently a big difference between humans and angels is that humans are redeemable. Once Satan and his angels sinned, every fiber of their being was against God and stayed that way, where as Adam and Eve repented. Some propoganda films about Nazi's and Japs may have portrayed them as unredeemable evil savages. In this sense the two are similar.
While many at the time considered Nazi Germany and Imperialist Japan as physical manifestations of evil, it should be remembered that they viewed the Allied powers in much the same light. The difference (in my opinion) lies only in the fact that the Allies won the war.
The first sentence is mainly true. But the second is false. If the axis powers had won, the world would be a VERY different place today. If the only difference between the two was who won or lost, rather than which one was following genuinely evil concepts, then did the holocaust and broken peace treaties really matter?

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 56 (120456)
06-30-2004 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Hangdawg13
06-30-2004 4:02 PM


quote:
This is the basic Biblical view of Satan that can be pieced together from passages that mention him.
Indeed. In Genesis, God says, "Let us make Man in our image," indicating one member of a pantheon.
In Job, he is the presiding officer of a council of deities, including Satan; a significant boost in his authority, no?
By the time of the Exodus, he is telling the Hebrews to have "no other gods before me" -- not forbidding their worship, just emphasizing his leadership.
Suddently, at the time of the exile, when the Israelites are in captivity and the histories and phophecies are written, he is the only god.
It is interesting.

This message is a reply to:
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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 868 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 9 of 56 (120467)
06-30-2004 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Chiroptera
06-30-2004 4:06 PM


Indeed. In Genesis, God says, "Let us make Man in our image," indicating one member of a pantheon.
This is stupid. Elohim was used in the previous verses denoting the trinity. Us and Our is continuing the plural usage. Moses made it clear in his writings that God is one in essence and three in person.
In Job, he is the presiding officer of a council of deities, including Satan; a significant boost in his authority, no?
Presiding officer of a council of deities??? What the hell? Satan presents his argument that Job only serves God because God blesses him, God then proves to satan that this is not true.
By the time of the Exodus, he is telling the Hebrews to have "no other gods before me" -- not forbidding their worship, just emphasizing his leadership.
A perfect example for SD of how satan propgates lies (I'm not saying you are Satan, but this is how he thinks and works). Ex 20:1 says I am the Lord your God... You shall have no other gods before (actually a mistranslation; should be: in addition to, in place of, or besides) me... You shall not bow down to them (idols) or worship them.
A more literal translation would be: "There will not be any other gods in addition to me"
And all throughout the old testament God is called the "living God" to show emphasize that idols are dead.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1461 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 56 (120468)
06-30-2004 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Hangdawg13
06-30-2004 4:02 PM


Before human history began (possibly between Gen 1:1 and 1:2), God created the angels. Lucifer was the highest, most beautiful, most powerful angel. Sometime later he commited the first sin of arrogance. He said, "I will be like the Most High" and then led a rebellion in which approx. 1/3 of all angels followed him as "god". God judged him and his angels and sentenced him to the lake of fire, but apparently he said, "You're not being fair".
book, chapter, and verse?
i'm pretty certain you won't find that story anywhere in the bible. especially since lucifer = christ, not satan. (see my post above)
So throughout human history Satan as the ruler of this world has been offering his evidence that he is "like the Most High". This is why he is called the accuser (see Job and testing of Jesus).
doesn't follow. how is that an accusation?
satan, or more properly, hasatan, translates as "the opponent" or "the tester [of men]." his purpose is to provide us with alternatives so choice is meaningful, and test our faith. ultimate, he must serve the will of god, otherwise you are indicating that god is not omnipotent.
the dualism simply isn't there in the text. the earliest i can find it is in milton's "paradise lost." it re-appears also in joseph smith's "pearl of great price" in the book of moses.

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1461 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 11 of 56 (120473)
06-30-2004 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Hangdawg13
06-30-2004 4:56 PM


This is stupid. Elohim was used in the previous verses denoting the trinity. Us and Our is continuing the plural usage. Moses made it clear in his writings that God is one in essence and three in person.
yes, but you're thinking the wrong trinity. try reading up on the qabala's "trinity." this is likely the entities with whom moses spoke.
although eloyhim could probably also be applied to angels, but i doubt it from the use of languag later.
Presiding officer of a council of deities??? What the hell? Satan presents his argument that Job only serves God because God blesses him, God then proves to satan that this is not true.
job 1, god gathers his angels, the sons of god, ben 'eloyhim. satan is there also. he proposes a test of job, because, well that's what he does. in now respect is taking power from god. god has to allow satan to do what he does...
A perfect example for SD of how satan propgates lies (I'm not saying you are Satan, but this is how he thinks and works). Ex 20:1 says I am the Lord your God... You shall have no other gods before (actually a mistranslation; should be: in addition to, in place of, or besides) me... You shall not bow down to them (idols) or worship them.
A more literal translation would be: "There will not be any other gods in addition to me"
And all throughout the old testament God is called the "living God" to show emphasize that idols are dead.
i'm looking at the text of exo. 20:3.
it looks like it says something but having no other gods (or... even rulers?) shown to his face. or something.
i'll look later.

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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6990 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 12 of 56 (120474)
06-30-2004 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
06-30-2004 5:18 AM


oooooooogggggggggg!
Makes as much sense as what you said. Wonder where people find stuff like that. No, don't say the Bible. ok?

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 868 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 13 of 56 (120487)
06-30-2004 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by arachnophilia
06-30-2004 4:58 PM


book, chapter, and verse?
i'm pretty certain you won't find that story anywhere in the bible. especially since lucifer = christ, not satan. (see my post above)
No, lucifer = morning star, which is a description of satan's beauty before his fall in Isaiah. It is probably not correct to say lucifer was satan's name before the fall as this is only a description of his looks.
Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn (lucifer)! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: "is this him who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, him who made the world a desert...
From context, you can clearly see that this passage is not talking about Christ or the king of Babylon, but satan.
In Ezekiel 28:12 the prophet addresses the king of Tyre, but then goes beyond him to address the one behind him, satan, that is influencing him:
"'You were the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. you were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone adorned you: ruby, topaz... Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared. You were anointed as a guardian cherub (angel), for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones. Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.
It is clear the king of Tyre was not a cherub or in the garden or thrown out of heaven. This is a description of satan. The king of Tyre is also foreshadowing the beast of revelation who will also be a tool of Satan.
In Rev. 20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time... When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth -- Gog and Magog -- to gather them for battle... But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil, who decieived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown...
Another interesting passage about satan, Matt. 16:22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!" (Apparently this was satan speaking) Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
1 Peter 5:8 Be alert and clear-minded. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.
Ephesians 6:11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is... against the powers of this dark world and aginst the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Matt. 4:1 Then Jesus was led out into the wilderness to tempted by the devil.
Job 1:6 One day the angels (sons of God clearly suboordinate to him) came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (the accuser) also. The Lord said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan replied, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it." Satan then accuses God of enticing Job to follow him by giving him special treatment. Without such a bribe satan says Job will curse God to his face. Job is put to the test and does not sin in all he says, thereby destroying Satan's argument.
These are some of the chapter and verse dealing with Satan.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-30-2004 09:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 868 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 14 of 56 (120488)
06-30-2004 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PecosGeorge
06-30-2004 5:26 PM


oooooooogggggggggg!
Makes as much sense as what you said. Wonder where people find stuff like that. No, don't say the Bible. ok?
Fo real! If people on here mangle Bible doctrine this badly I am certain that they are probably mangling other information as well.

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 851 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 15 of 56 (120510)
06-30-2004 7:22 PM


Pray for the poor guy..........
Satan, that is.
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