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Author | Topic: Second Law of Thermodynamics | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
pianoprincess* Inactive Member |
I just wondering how evolutionist can explain the second law of thermodynamics when evolution says that the universe is evolving 'upwards' and the 2nd law says that things are backsliding? Thanks.
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AdminAsgara Administrator (Idle past 2302 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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NosyNed Member Posts: 8996 From: Canada Joined: |
There is no conflict with the second law of thermodynamics and the behaviour of the universe.
The history and development of the universe is not something which evolutionary biologists have anything to do with. You have been fed utter crap by whatever source you are using. I suggest you find out: 1) What the second law actually says.2) What the difference is between cosmology and biology is. 3) What sources to trust for information on such topics.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I just wondering how evolutionist can explain the second law of thermodynamics when evolution says that the universe is evolving 'upwards' and the 2nd law says that things are backsliding? Thanks. Neither one of those theories says anything of the sort, so there's not really anything to explain. The second law says that the energy avaliable to do work in a closed system decreases over time. The theory of evolution explains the history of life on Earth not in terms of the amount of energy avaliable for work in a closed system, but by organisms reproducing imperfectly and often, not at all. So, you tell me. What does the first have to do with the second? The evolution of organisms over time isn't a closed system with a given amount of initial energy for work; in fact, it isn't a "system" in any sense at all.
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Iblis Member (Idle past 3895 days) Posts: 663 Joined: |
The second law is a generalization, it's talking about the overall tendency. Like if you throw some dice the overall tendency is for them to come up 7 about 6 times more often than 2. That doesn't mean you can't get 2 several times in a row though. With me so far?
Inside this overall tendency toward dissipation of energy, structures can still develop that trap the energy and use it to improve themselves. This isn't just theory either, Brad McFall got me looking into dissipative structures and I found a nice example in "Benard cells", these are self-organizing structures that develop in fluids trapped between two planes of different temperatures. The overall tendency is still for the energy to dissipate, but as long as the supply holds out the "cells" use the energy to advance in complexity rather than fall apart. Here's the deep version, hope it makes you trip out in a pleasant way EvC Forum: How big is our Galaxy.
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5834 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
Also keep in mind that the earth is NOT a closed system (there's this little thing called the SUN that provides energy here).
There is no conflict whatsoever between evolution and the 2nd law of thermodynamics
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1343 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
short post, short answer:
Five Major Misconceptions about EvolutionThe Second Law of Thermodynamics, Evolution, and Probability think about it for a second: what would a law of thermodynamics (ie: heat) have to do evolution? the second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of a closed system cannot decrease. entropy is a measure of lost potential energy.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
when evolution says that the universe is evolving 'upwards' That's not at all what the Theory of Evolution says and it's certainly not what is seen when we look at Evolution, the fact as opposed to the theory. Evolution (the Fact) does not seem to have had much of a direction except that the initial critter had to get more complex. It's hard to get less complex that a single cell or maybe even not a complete cell. The Theory of Evolution also does not express a direction. It's not a case of worse to better or less complex to more complex. Others will help you gain an understanding of why the 2nd. Law of Thermodynamice also does not have a bearing on evolution, but you should know that even the most ardent Biblical Creationists gave up on that argument years ago. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
evolution says nothing about upwards. evolution is directionless. it simply happens to have resulted in the current. evolution is the recognized pattern of what has and has not died and what the 'has not died's' have produced.
if a fish hatches without fins, he can't swim and he dies. thus, his genetic line is cut and he produces no offspring. if a fish hatches and happens to have study, thick fins that can support his body, he might be able to move on land and in the water and find more food. thus, he might live and reproduce and then he might pass his stronger fins to his children. evolution is the pattern of those mights; it is not a biological law of the ever-improving biome. i'm not so big on physics. you should read this.http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/probability.html but. in nature, the sun gives energy to the earth. plants absorb something like 1/10th of that energy. animals that eat plants only absorb 10% of the energy of plants. animals that eat animals only recieve 10% of the energy that those animals had. and so forth. there's plenty of loss in our system to make up for any reorder. This message has been edited by brennakimi, 01-24-2006 12:18 AM
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Discreet Label Member (Idle past 5063 days) Posts: 272 Joined: |
Okay 2nd Law Thermodynamics. This one is particularly fun.
The total entropy of any isolated thermodynamic system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value. Not this definition of law two is taken of wikipediea (unforutnatly I don't have a physics book handy) A key point in particular about this law states that for any isolated system the total entropy increases. (key word isolated) By isolated meaning there are no external factors affecting the system. So for example our physical universe could be considered an isolated system in it that there is no external forces or things acting upon the universe, since the system of the universe contains everything. Now lets take a look at an example closer to home. Lets look at the earth. If we call our system the earth all we have in this particular system would be the biospheres, the chemical reactions, the enrgy made and used on the planet. Now we have labeled earth our system however, earth is not an isolated system because there are external factors affecting the earth that can add or remove energy from the earth. One particular example would be the sun's rays going through the earth's atmosphere and then plants using the sun's rays (electromagnetic radiation) to carry out photosynthesis, a process taking the very stable (by that meaning it takes a lot of energy to break water and carbon dioxide into its invidvudal atoms) and unreactive compounds of water and carbon dioxide and making energy bearing compounds like carbohydrates (which tend to be eaten by animals of all sorts as a soruce of energy). An example of removing energy from the system of the earth would be particles and other things that escape earth's atmosphere. So yeah theres part of an explanation of why while 2nd law of thermodynamics is true. It does not specifically apply to the earth.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I just wondering how evolutionist can explain the second law of thermodynamics when evolution says that the universe is evolving 'upwards' and the 2nd law says that things are backsliding? Fortunately for evolutionists that's not what either idea is saying. Ley me copy/paste a 'simple' explanation I made on another forum about a year ago:
quote: I've tremendously simplified the issue here, and that might lead to some misunderstandings. The bottom line is that the laws of thermodynamics are not something that can be easily summed up in one sentence. That would be like saying that the law of gravity is 'what goes up must come down'. Such little frazes help illustrate to us what the law is, but they aren't the law in themselves.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1343 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
i mean. promoting a two line topic? and one that's basic t.o faq material and very very tired fallacy that's been beaten to death here? that's just asking for the pile-on. which, as we can see, is happening.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1405 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
and from a poster that has posted a total of 4 posts with not one response to any replies to her posts.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
One should also add that the universe is not evolving "upwards", whatever that means.
"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Here are some other threads on thermodynamics and evolution:
ThermodynamicsObservations of Great Debate - ID and thermodynamics Breaking Laws of Thermodynamics Thermodynamics, Abiogenesis and Evolution Thermodynamics and Cosmology for MPW A Question about Evolution (2nd Law of Thermodynamics) Is evolution the only thing to contradict the Second law of Thermodynamics? Evolution vs. Thermodynamics Enjoy your reading.
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