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Author Topic:   Second Law of Thermodynamics
pianoprincess*
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 102 (281082)
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


I just wondering how evolutionist can explain the second law of thermodynamics when evolution says that the universe is evolving 'upwards' and the 2nd law says that things are backsliding? Thanks.

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AdminAsgara
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Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 102 (281114)
01-23-2006 11:54 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

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NosyNed
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Message 3 of 102 (281120)
01-24-2006 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pianoprincess*
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


No reason to explain anything.
There is no conflict with the second law of thermodynamics and the behaviour of the universe.
The history and development of the universe is not something which evolutionary biologists have anything to do with.
You have been fed utter crap by whatever source you are using.
I suggest you find out:
1) What the second law actually says.
2) What the difference is between cosmology and biology is.
3) What sources to trust for information on such topics.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 4 of 102 (281123)
01-24-2006 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pianoprincess*
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


I just wondering how evolutionist can explain the second law of thermodynamics when evolution says that the universe is evolving 'upwards' and the 2nd law says that things are backsliding? Thanks.
Neither one of those theories says anything of the sort, so there's not really anything to explain.
The second law says that the energy avaliable to do work in a closed system decreases over time. The theory of evolution explains the history of life on Earth not in terms of the amount of energy avaliable for work in a closed system, but by organisms reproducing imperfectly and often, not at all.
So, you tell me. What does the first have to do with the second? The evolution of organisms over time isn't a closed system with a given amount of initial energy for work; in fact, it isn't a "system" in any sense at all.

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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 5 of 102 (281124)
01-24-2006 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pianoprincess*
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


The second law is a generalization, it's talking about the overall tendency. Like if you throw some dice the overall tendency is for them to come up 7 about 6 times more often than 2. That doesn't mean you can't get 2 several times in a row though. With me so far?
Inside this overall tendency toward dissipation of energy, structures can still develop that trap the energy and use it to improve themselves. This isn't just theory either, Brad McFall got me looking into dissipative structures and I found a nice example in "Benard cells", these are self-organizing structures that develop in fluids trapped between two planes of different temperatures. The overall tendency is still for the energy to dissipate, but as long as the supply holds out the "cells" use the energy to advance in complexity rather than fall apart.
Here's the deep version, hope it makes you trip out in a pleasant way
EvC Forum: How big is our Galaxy.

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Replies to this message:
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
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Message 6 of 102 (281125)
01-24-2006 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pianoprincess*
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


Earth <> closed system
Also keep in mind that the earth is NOT a closed system (there's this little thing called the SUN that provides energy here).
There is no conflict whatsoever between evolution and the 2nd law of thermodynamics

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 7 of 102 (281126)
01-24-2006 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pianoprincess*
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


short post, short answer:
Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution
The Second Law of Thermodynamics, Evolution, and Probability
think about it for a second: what would a law of thermodynamics (ie: heat) have to do evolution? the second law of thermodynamics says that the entropy of a closed system cannot decrease. entropy is a measure of lost potential energy.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 102 (281128)
01-24-2006 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pianoprincess*
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


Ah, let's list the fallacies
when evolution says that the universe is evolving 'upwards'
That's not at all what the Theory of Evolution says and it's certainly not what is seen when we look at Evolution, the fact as opposed to the theory. Evolution (the Fact) does not seem to have had much of a direction except that the initial critter had to get more complex. It's hard to get less complex that a single cell or maybe even not a complete cell.
The Theory of Evolution also does not express a direction. It's not a case of worse to better or less complex to more complex.
Others will help you gain an understanding of why the 2nd. Law of Thermodynamice also does not have a bearing on evolution, but you should know that even the most ardent Biblical Creationists gave up on that argument years ago.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 9 of 102 (281129)
01-24-2006 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pianoprincess*
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


evolution says nothing about upwards. evolution is directionless. it simply happens to have resulted in the current. evolution is the recognized pattern of what has and has not died and what the 'has not died's' have produced.
if a fish hatches without fins, he can't swim and he dies. thus, his genetic line is cut and he produces no offspring. if a fish hatches and happens to have study, thick fins that can support his body, he might be able to move on land and in the water and find more food. thus, he might live and reproduce and then he might pass his stronger fins to his children.
evolution is the pattern of those mights; it is not a biological law of the ever-improving biome.
i'm not so big on physics. you should read this.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo/probability.html
but. in nature, the sun gives energy to the earth. plants absorb something like 1/10th of that energy. animals that eat plants only absorb 10% of the energy of plants. animals that eat animals only recieve 10% of the energy that those animals had. and so forth. there's plenty of loss in our system to make up for any reorder.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 01-24-2006 12:18 AM

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Discreet Label
Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 272
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 10 of 102 (281130)
01-24-2006 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pianoprincess*
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


Thermodynamics
Okay 2nd Law Thermodynamics. This one is particularly fun.
The total entropy of any isolated thermodynamic system tends to increase over time, approaching a maximum value.
Not this definition of law two is taken of wikipediea (unforutnatly I don't have a physics book handy)
A key point in particular about this law states that for any isolated system the total entropy increases. (key word isolated)
By isolated meaning there are no external factors affecting the system. So for example our physical universe could be considered an isolated system in it that there is no external forces or things acting upon the universe, since the system of the universe contains everything.
Now lets take a look at an example closer to home. Lets look at the earth. If we call our system the earth all we have in this particular system would be the biospheres, the chemical reactions, the enrgy made and used on the planet.
Now we have labeled earth our system however, earth is not an isolated system because there are external factors affecting the earth that can add or remove energy from the earth. One particular example would be the sun's rays going through the earth's atmosphere and then plants using the sun's rays (electromagnetic radiation) to carry out photosynthesis, a process taking the very stable (by that meaning it takes a lot of energy to break water and carbon dioxide into its invidvudal atoms) and unreactive compounds of water and carbon dioxide and making energy bearing compounds like carbohydrates (which tend to be eaten by animals of all sorts as a soruce of energy). An example of removing energy from the system of the earth would be particles and other things that escape earth's atmosphere.
So yeah theres part of an explanation of why while 2nd law of thermodynamics is true. It does not specifically apply to the earth.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 11 of 102 (281131)
01-24-2006 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pianoprincess*
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


I just wondering how evolutionist can explain the second law of thermodynamics when evolution says that the universe is evolving 'upwards' and the 2nd law says that things are backsliding?
Fortunately for evolutionists that's not what either idea is saying. Ley me copy/paste a 'simple' explanation I made on another forum about a year ago:
quote:
I think the problem with the second law of thermodynamics debate stems from equivocation. Sometimes this might be intentional, but most of the time its unintentional.
Now SLOT, or 2LoT is often defined, by YECs as
"The entropy of a system will always increase"
followed with
"The disorder of a system will always increase"
Or such things. Now, first there is an error by emission here. The 2LoT talks about a tendency. That's quite important here, but its not vital.
Lets define some terms.
Thermodynamics
Literally: Heat movements. A branch of physics that deals with laws of heat transfer.
Entropy
Not going to define this just yet, but remember that entropy is an energy which means its measured using Joules.
Order
This is not about how tidy and lively something is. It refers to how concentrated energy is in a given system.
Disorder
This is about how diffuse energy is a system.
Work
The transfer of energy from one physical system to another.
A simple example of what 2LoT implies
So, if I put a hot coal in a thermodynamically isolated system, the heat energy from that hot coal will transfer to the rest of the system. Eventually our system here will reach a uniform temperature. 2LoT says that energy transfers occur from hot to cold. Since there is no hot nor cold there are no more energy transfers.
In thermodynamics we started off with low entropy (order) because we had a concentration of energy. In the end, no concentration of energy existed, the energy was fully spread out, so now we have high entropy. Or disorder.
OK, that's straightforward, but what happens when we add work into the affair?
Work and 2LoT
2LoT tells us, by inference, that no 'machine' (a system that does work) can be 100% efficient. Some energy is always lost, as heat. Now imagine a system that gets hold of that heat, and uses it to do more work? It can be done, but that work is not 100% efficient either. One can keep building more systems that grab on to the lost heat, but in the end, there is some amount of heat that isn't enough to be able overcome the force (eg friction) to do any work. That heat is lost and is called 'entropy'.
People have tried to make perpetual motion machines, but they stopped once 2LoT became accepted, because perpetual motion machines cannot occur and obey the second law...some energy is always lost.
OK, where am I going here? Lets look at our system. We shall simplify it. It is a Star and a Planet. The Sun and Earth as we call them. The Sun is a huge concentration of energy, the Earth, also, has energy but not like the sun has...the sun is a million times the size of the earth, and is a big nuclear explosion. I think its safe to say, the sun is HUGE energy. Its a good job that not all of that energy reaches earth, or we'd be toast. Anyway according to thermodynamics the sun should be transferring energy to the parts of the system that have less energy (are colder). This is happening, 2LoT has not been violated yet.
OK, now the energy that is being dissipated by the sun, can be put to work. Not all of it, but most of it. A plant that exists on Earth, can take that energy and convert it to chemical energy. It uses this chemical energy to divide its cells. This division of cells allows the plant to grow. It also allows it to create special reproductive cells so it can make more plants.
So, the energy from the sun is being made to do work. This work is not 100% efficient. Some of the energy from the sun is wasted in this endevour...to eventually boil away into space as per 2LoT which says that the ordered (concentration of energy) earth should be distributing that energy (radiating it off into space) to become more disordered (less concentrated).
A bad example of evolution, but it doesn't violate any known laws
Poor earth, half of it is getting rid of its heat energy and becoming more entropic, the other half is getting loads more bloody energy from the sun over there. So the earth is nearly always the same temperature, it has about the same level of energy on it.
Our plant is busy using that energy to do work, and is contributing its entropy to the great and powerful Thermo-taxman. All is good. Now...the plant does some strange work...it creates a reproductive cell with a beneficial mutation (and an extra chromosome)...it took more work create that cell, than normal! No worries, there is plenty of chemical energy with which to do that work, but it does make a little bit more entropy as well. Surely not! That betrays the law of thermodynamics you say! Of course it doesn't, the plant does work to evolve, it gets the energy to do that work from the sun. The price we pay for evolution? A little more entropy in the universe a little more quickly. Evolution increases the entropy of the universe, just like any work does anywhere.
2LoT has not be violated at any point during our hypothetical journey. If it did, please tell me where.
Abiogenesis/Autogenesis and an example of a everyday violation of 2LoT
Now. The creation of life. Does that betray thermodynamics? Do we need a system in place to harness raw power? If a system doesn't exist, does it all just go to waste? Unworkable energy?
No. I can show you right now a localised system that requires no Intelligence driving it, where a high entropy state is transformed into a low entropy state, temporarily. That's right, if you are unfortunate to live somewhere as miserable as Britain I can almost guarantee that if you walk outside now you can observe the result of a seeming temporary violation of 2LoT. Go out...look up. See any clouds? How did they get there?
Look at a body of water. Its energy is evenly distributed. Its just sat there, not doing anything, no work is being done, there is no workable energy. OK. High Entropy state right? The sun shines on it...it warms up. The top water molecules suddenly have the energy to brake free of their watery bonds and turn into vapour. Weeee! The vapour starts to do work as it works against gravity to fly to the sky...with its friends, attending a party we call a cloud. What is a cloud? Its 3 water molecules: Two's company, three's a cloud. I kid. Anyway, this cloud is officially a concentration of Potential Energy. Where there was once a distribution of energy, there is now a localized concentration of energy. A temporary violation of 2LoT. No intervention by an intelligence was required to produce this temporary violation.
So, it can be seen that the sun can, and does everyday, cause localized seeming violations of thermodynamics.
Of course, no violation has really occurred because the cloud and water are not closed systems...and the work done is not 100% efficient, some of the work to do that produced unworkable energy that is now working its way through the universe on a mission to make everything the same uniform temperature.
How it all fits together
Now - since the sun can, and does, do this. It is therefore possible (though not proven) that the sun can cause complex molecules to form without violating thermodynamics. One day, a long time ago, the sun caused one of these complex molecules to form with another, and another. Eventually the collection of complex molecules was able use the sun's energy to create new complex molecules that simply copied the original.
One day after that, during this chemical copying process, an error occurred. This error led to a complex molecule not copying properly, and when it did a lot more work than normal (and made more entropy wee!) and ended up creating 4 collections of complex molecules (these collections we call cells). The funny thing is - when this group of cells tried to copy themselves, they found that the instruction error that led to this multicellular organism, copied itself over too. And so, lots of multicellular organisms came into being.
And so we see abiogenesis and evolution occurring without a violation of thermodynamics.
I've tremendously simplified the issue here, and that might lead to some misunderstandings. The bottom line is that the laws of thermodynamics are not something that can be easily summed up in one sentence. That would be like saying that the law of gravity is 'what goes up must come down'. Such little frazes help illustrate to us what the law is, but they aren't the law in themselves.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 12 of 102 (281132)
01-24-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminAsgara
01-23-2006 11:54 PM


i think this was a bad idea
i mean. promoting a two line topic? and one that's basic t.o faq material and very very tired fallacy that's been beaten to death here? that's just asking for the pile-on. which, as we can see, is happening.

אָרַח

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 13 of 102 (281148)
01-24-2006 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by arachnophilia
01-24-2006 12:23 AM


Re: i think this was a bad idea
and from a poster that has posted a total of 4 posts with not one response to any replies to her posts.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 102 (281159)
01-24-2006 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pianoprincess*
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


One should also add that the universe is not evolving "upwards", whatever that means.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 15 of 102 (281162)
01-24-2006 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by pianoprincess*
01-23-2006 11:01 PM


Some other threads

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