the book of job, and an unjust god

bible or faith and belief, up to you mods. in reply to dpardo, because it was a tad off topic in the john thread. this thread should try to stick to biblical evidence for an unjust god, and readings and interpretations of the book of job.one of the most common premises put forth by modern christianity is that god is just. when people say this, they mean on a very strict, personal level. god follows his own rules, so to speak. and also that god punishes those who deserve it, and rewards the faithful. a quick examination of the bible reveals this to be in error. throughout the bible, god is recordes as breaking his own rules. god kills, yet we are told not to kill.certain things are clearly reserved for god and god alone. his laws for man must only be for man. it is my faith that says that god uses even evil for the greater good, or because it is right somehow. what would the world be like without death?my intent is to show that god is not just by christian standards, or by the standards he holds men to, and that god is entirely different from man in this respect. this is not condemn or accuse god of anything but only to demonstrate that the law does not apply to god. it is also partly to refute the idea that god is incapable of forgiveness without compensation (sacrifice), because strict justice is inherent to his nature.job in particular promotes the idea that god is quite unjust according to the standards we place on god, but that we should not place those standards on god. which part? job is two stories, really. it's far too confounded to really discuss here, but the primary focus of both texts relies on the fact that job is a good man (perfect, as he is called), and bad things are happening to him. well, how do you answer that question? there is no denying that bad things happen to good people, and vice versa. why? that sounds like an unjust god to me, according to your idea that god is held to his own standards.my teacher suggested that job is, for this reason, questioning his faith. maybe he isn't sure if god even exists. and so he spends like 35 chapters provoking god into showing up, and when god does, he can rest assured that at least there is a god, and he knows what he's doing. i really like that reading of the text.job is not the only book that seems to indicate god is not held to his own standards. in a previous thread, i listed reasons, similar to job's, that people question the judeo-christian faith. here is the relevant post, as it's too long to repost here, but please address all replies to it here, since it caused the other topic to wander off topic too far. http://EvC Forum: Why I am creationist -->EvC Forum: Why I am creationist(if the mods wish, i will repost the relevant section to this thread instead)This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-18-2004 03:53 AM

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Arachnophilia Then the end justifies the means?on their own[/i],yet we find time and again that choices are altered by the intervention of god. If law does not apply to god then how can he become angry at those who see this as unjust?In the christian world what is the compensation for the loss of,say,ones complete family in a war?Do we not find is questionable that speculation such as this is made by people in relativly peaceful countries who do not have to experience the degradation and fear on a daily basis.
Imagine your position on this if armed strangers were to come in and force you to witness the death of each of your closest family by placing a .45 to their temple and pulling the trigger while your were seeing the horror in their eyes.Imagine it was your son or daughter?And then tell me the ends justify the means.Tell me that god was just.

If one wants to make the case that God is unjust, one has only to read 1 Samuel 15. God orders Israel to attack and utterly destroy an entire race of people, going out of his way to order that children and even suckling infants be killed. It's passages like this that make me wonder just why it is that we're supposed to be afraid of Satan. If this is really God then he's a lot like Hitler.

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

How come we concentrate on individual cases and ignore the genocide of the Flood? Regardless of how many existed then, it must make other aberrations pale into insignificance. Funny how believers trot out the 'God is just' line, but ignore not only the Flood extermination, but the millions of believers who went to their deaths throughout history reciting the line 'ask and ye will receive'.Hell, I`m sure a lot of those kids who die in agony each year still believe that rubbish.

not exactly. i look at it more as the difference in outcomes of a single choice on the part of god. the alternative may be far worse.apply this for a second to the standard teaching of christianity. god killed his own innocent son. a minor attrocity, and the very definition of injustice. christ did not deserve death, right? and we do? god's choice here is fundamentally unjust, but is for the greater good. because the law applies to man. i also think god is more forgiving than most people. yes, this is a hard concept. faith-shattering, even. how can god be just, and yet allow this happen as it often does in his own promised land? this simply a form of a response to that very question, and the one i think job presents hints of. i'm not. i believe the standpoint i've been promoting in this thread is that god is unjust by any human standards. it is only my faith which leads me to believe there is any more to the story.

it took you all the way to samuel? in the link i posted to the other thread, i must have hit a dozen and change before i got to leviticus.

well, i'm concentrating on strictly what the bible says. i would have included that example had the bible not said that all humanity but noah was wicked.i don't think the flood really happened, let alone that all humanity could be irredeamably wretched. but i'm just working off what the stories say. this, i can tell, is going to be a really difficult and heated topic. i think job is sort of an answer to that. but is it anything new? no. does really solve any great philosophical issues or give us clear answers? not in the slightest. it basically just says "don't question god, keep up the faith."yeah.

It is not unusual at all for morality plays to be really, really horrible. Exaggeration is a common technique to get a point across and also to keep the story exciting.Is there any reason to think that Job as well as many of the others in the Bible are not simply the same thing?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

is job a morality play, though?and if so, what moral is it presenting? have faith? in what exactly?This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-18-2004 10:21 PM

Actually I'd be more likely to consider the story of Job two have several motives.First, it is talking about the power of GOD. It is showing that GOD can do anything he wants. It is also though trying to explain to folk that you can't explain GOD in terms of what happens to you. I imagine there is an underlying attempt from the Priestly Class to try to explain why bad things happen to good people.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

i guess that sort of goes with what i think i may be trying to say.i'll give it more thought.

No, it didn't take me all the way to Samuel. I've had these debates about whether God is good or bad according to scripture for years. I've noticed here in Jesusland that the story of the Amalekites seems to make fundies squirm, perhaps because it's difficult to spin. It's a favorite of mine because it has the element of maniacal racism which makes God comparable to Hitler.

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

Arachnophilia So,for instance,Clumbine,Jonestown,Crusades,cancer,Chernobyl,ethnic cleansing in numerous countries would be for whose greater good?Killing ones son that we might be forgiven is the work of sanity in your eyes?First, the likelihood of christ even existing is highly debateable{and a good seperate topic I will persue}and second how is the death of a single man somehow a balancing act to forgive anyone of any attrocity? I am sorry if I do not share in your enthusiasm but that amounts to walking with your eyes shut to the actual origin and purpose of the horrors. Forgiving of what? Sin? If you would lead a group would you flaunt the very law you impose?This is dictatorship.I am appalled that this is the position you would take{only my opinion remember}since this I feel is the reason that such attrocities as we witness in the world originate and continue through time. You did not answer the question my friend. Take a few days off to view some war footage of the beheadings of civilians and the death of children in a war zone.Better yet go witness firsthand and visualize in your mind your loved ones faces in each of those scenarios.Then tell me you would still support such as being for the greater good.Make sure you are wrapped in warm blankets in a warm house well fed and enjoying life.Tell me this is not hypocrisy.

god killed his own innocent sonBig deal! It's not like Jesus is off to hell or has to worry about wants going next is it? He knows that the big G is going to look after him - otherwise how is he going to have second coming?This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 12-19-2004 09:04 AM