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Author Topic:   Question Regarding Apples and Oranges
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 1 of 8 (162452)
11-22-2004 9:50 PM


This is, essentially, a meta-discussion and I do not want to actually discuss the specifics but rather than analysis behind the specifics.
In another board, a question was brought up as to why, in some places, a husband needs to get his wife's permission in order to have a vasectomy while she does not need his permission in order to have an abortion.
Stop right there. This is not about whether or not abortion should be allowed. Any attempt to derail this thread into a discussion about abortion will, I hope, be swiftly dealt with by moderators. Besides, if you keep reading to the end of the post, I hope you will find why the question of the legitimacy of abortion is irrelevant.
While many people pointed out the seeming unfairness in his needing her permission to never have a child while she is free to abort any that are created without his consent, I claim that the two are unrelated.
A vasectomy is nothing like an abortion and cannot be compared to it. A vasectomy prevents a child from ever coming into being since there will never, ever be a fetus that might develop into a child. An abortion, on the other hand, prevents a fetus from becoming a child. It's one step further down the road.
Instead, a vasectomy is comparable to a tubal ligation and if I am not mistaken, those places that require a wife's permission in order for the husband to get a vasectomy also require a husband's permission in order for a wife to get a tubal ligation. The reason for this has to do with the history and context of what was considered part of the marriage contract.
That is, marriage was about producing an heir. While you don't have to have children in order to be considered married, the case remained that the only "legitimate" children were ones that were produced from a married couple. We have inherited this baggage as to what is expected out of a marriage so that if you marry somebody with the promise that you can have children when you know you can't due to having been sterilized or some biological impediment, it is considered fraud and the marriage can be dissolved. Thus, given this past history, we can see why there are rules that say a spouse needs the other spouse's permission in order to undergo sterilization: A spouse who wants children (and you're "supposed" to have children only with your spouse) will suddenly no longer be able to have children if the other undergoes sterilization. To do so without the consent of the other violates an expectation of the marriage contract: The person may no longer wish to be married to you if he or she knew that you could not produce a child.
The arguments against having a spousal requirement generally fell under the "my body, my decision" justification and that was part of the reason why it seemed to be connected to abortion, but I don't think that is a valid connection. Two reasons:
1) No freedom is absolute. There are those that take "my body, my decision" to the point of saying that a person should be entitled to commit suicide if he wishes. But I think it's safe to say that even those people would agree that it doesn't include the right to choose suicide by running out into oncoming traffic: Your right to kill yourself does not include the right to force somebody else to be the one to kill you. I think we would all agree that you would be held responsible for the five-car pileup that resulted from your actions (paid either by you, should you survive, or your estate, should you not).
Therefore, we cannot just say, "my body, my decision," and expect that to be an answer. It might be, but we have to look at the full consequences of the action and see if anybody else has a stake in your decision to do with your body what you wish. If we agree that having children is connected to marriage, then I can see why we might say that the marital desire of "I want children" trumps this particular instance of "my body, my decision."
And note, abortion is a one-time shot while sterilization is a now-and-forever deal. A woman who has an abortion might still want to have children. Ignoring the issues of just how screwed up a marriage is if the couple cannot discuss the question of whether and when to have children, an abortion is not final in the sense of a person's reproductive lifetime and ability. Yes, sterilization procedures can be reversed, but they are expensive and quite often don't work.
On top of this, a woman who is pregnant has real, albeit low probability, risks to her life and health. In this case, I can see why we might say that her right to say, "I don't want to risk my life," overrides his right to say, "I want children."
2) Suppose abortion were illegal (see...I told you there's a reason not to make this into a debate about abortion.) Suppose it were determined that a fetus is a person and shall not be subjected to any procedure designed to directly and deliberately kill it.
Would that change any argument as to why a spouse should not need the other's permission in order to undergo sterilization? I don't think it would. Again, the reason why we have these laws is due to a societal expectation that children are to be produced from marriage and that taking that option away from your partner without his or her consent is wrong.
So even if we are going to say that that expectation is wrong, what does that have to do with abortion and the fetus being a person?
Therefore, since the reasoning we have for accepting or rejecting the notion that a spouse's approval is needed for sterilization is independent of the status of abortion, I would say that the two are incomparable. Despite the fact that both are related to having children, both are related to a question of who has control over whose body, they are completely separate issues and cannot be compared. Just because two things are blue doesn't mean they have anything in common other than the fact that they are blue.
Again, I say that you cannot compare a vasectomy to an abortion. Instead, you can compare it to a tubal ligation. If it were the case that he needs her permission in order to get sterilized but she doesn't need his permission, then we have a problem. But to say that he is somehow being oppressed because she can have an abortion without telling him and yet he can't get a vasectomy without her consent doesn't make sense.
Instead, the comparable issue regarding abortion is her ability to determine whether or not he has this child and if he does, whether or not he has any connection to it. If the couple is not married, she can choose whether or not he has any parental rights, whether or not he is required to pay child support, etc. (yes, I know this is not the case in all states, but it is the case in many.) She can, if she so chooses, completely remove him from his child's life. Or, she can make him completely responsible. He, on the other hand, has no such power over her.
Note, I am not arguing about whether or not any of these situations are right or wrong and I do not want this discussion to be about that. I simply want to know if others think my analysis is right that you cannot compare sterilization to abortion.
[Moderators...where should this go? Coffee House? Short Subjects?]

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Coragyps, posted 11-22-2004 10:44 PM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 4 by Ben!, posted 11-23-2004 1:25 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 7 by purpledawn, posted 11-23-2004 8:09 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 8 (162462)
11-22-2004 10:31 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 755 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 3 of 8 (162467)
11-22-2004 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rrhain
11-22-2004 9:50 PM


Dead-on solid logic is what your argument looks like to me, Rrhain. As usual. Go get 'em.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rrhain, posted 11-22-2004 9:50 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1419 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 4 of 8 (162498)
11-23-2004 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rrhain
11-22-2004 9:50 PM


Ben's Argument Analysis (where's the damn sheep smiley?? )
Rrhain,
Here are my comments:
1.
Rrhain writes:
A spouse who wants children (and you're "supposed" to have children only with your spouse) will suddenly no longer be able to have children if the other undergoes sterilization. To do so without the consent of the other violates an expectation of the marriage contract: The person may no longer wish to be married to you if he or she knew that you could not produce a child.
You describe the contractual terms of marriage in a historical social setting. In analyzing 'why' the current laws are like this, that's important. However, to analyze 'fairness' (you use the word 'unfairness' in your 4th paragraph), it seems to me that the 'historical significance' of marriage is much less important than the CURRENT social attitudes and expectations for marriage. So I think the analysis of current social attitudes towards childbirth in marriage is an important aspect of analyzing the 'fairness' of this situation.
2.
Rrhain writes:
And note, abortion is a one-time shot while sterilization is a now-and-forever deal. A woman who has an abortion might still want to have children. Ignoring the issues of just how screwed up a marriage is if the couple cannot discuss the question of whether and when to have children, an abortion is not final in the sense of a person's reproductive lifetime and ability.
I think you were being careful here, but I still think you're glossing too lightly over the statement that abortion is a one-time deal. That can only be said on a case-by-case basis. Many couples also struggle to have children; the probability of conceiving again (given factors such as fertility, age, health, etc) would need to be checked. But many couples certainly have a lot of difficulty either conceiving, or carrying a baby.
Also, you say
On top of this, a woman who is pregnant has real, albeit low probability, risks to her life and health. In this case, I can see why we might say that her right to say, "I don't want to risk my life," overrides his right to say, "I want children."
I COMPLETELY agree with this point; however, if this is a consideration, then it should be a consideration for stating that it's possible to have further children. It's possible the wife's reproductive ability, or even life, is compromised in the abortion procedure.
3. Unwarranted logical move?
You pose marriage in 'contractual' terms, in order to keep you argument clear and 'purely logical.' However, I really don't think that's a justified move. I think we can agree that people don't generally get married for purely practical, or contractual reasons. There is surely an 'irrational' element; emotion. Because of that, the problem cannot be solved ONLY with logic. By eliminating the 'irrational' side to the argument, you (in my view) make an unwarranted move, and that invalidates your argument. Your argument must take into consideration that there are 'irrational' aspects and expectations in marriage. And I think if you analyze the 'irrational' aspects of marriage, that these aspects WILL have a bearing on how a vasectomy and an abortion are related.
I'm not arguing the consequences of any of these points (whether they change your argument's conclusion or not); rather I'm trying to follow your 'meta-argument' instructions, to find what I think are the weakest areas of your arguments. If you want to talk about what the proposed consequences (if any) would be, we can do that.
Thanks!
Ben
P.S. I like your argument structure and thinking style. It's a really clean presentation of your logical structure and ideas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rrhain, posted 11-22-2004 9:50 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Rrhain, posted 11-23-2004 5:30 AM Ben! has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 5 of 8 (162547)
11-23-2004 5:30 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Ben!
11-23-2004 1:25 AM


Re: Ben's Argument Analysis (where's the damn sheep smiley?? )
bencip19 responds to me:
quote:
You describe the contractual terms of marriage in a historical social setting. In analyzing 'why' the current laws are like this, that's important. However, to analyze 'fairness' (you use the word 'unfairness' in your 4th paragraph), it seems to me that the 'historical significance' of marriage is much less important than the CURRENT social attitudes and expectations for marriage. So I think the analysis of current social attitudes towards childbirth in marriage is an important aspect of analyzing the 'fairness' of this situation.
I agree, but I would point out that the laws are still around because societally, we still hold those attitudes. Even though our understanding of what a "marriage" is has expanded, we still have a thing about having children out of wedlock. Ask any couple who has been married for a few years and still don't have any children about how many times they are asked, "So when are you going to have children?" It's expected: When you get married, you have children. Of the many reasons that people have to get married, a big one is to have children. That's why we have laws that allow a claim of fraud should it turn out that one of the partners knows he can't have children but claims that he can. Other lies such as being a virgin don't rise to the same standard of fraud.
As a society, we have the idea that a person has the right to have children if he chooses and can find someone to have those children with. As a society, we really don't like it when those children are born out of wedlock. Therefore, these two combine to say that a spouse who undergoes sterilization without his partner's consent is somehow robbing his spouse of something. The law and the social aspects feed off of and reinforce each other.
quote:
I think you were being careful here, but I still think you're glossing too lightly over the statement that abortion is a one-time deal. That can only be said on a case-by-case basis. Many couples also struggle to have children; the probability of conceiving again (given factors such as fertility, age, health, etc) would need to be checked. But many couples certainly have a lot of difficulty either conceiving, or carrying a baby.
The reason I was being careful was because I didn't want people to think that I was somehow saying that abortion isn't a big deal. In my first draft, I had said, "an abortion is not final." I had thought it would be clear that I was talking about reproductive ability but I wanted to make sure that that was the intended point and not have anybody come back saying, "An abortion is final for the baby!"
Too, I don't want to get bogged down in the unusual and the bizarre. I'm not talking about a woman near menopause or someone who is barely able to conceive in the first place. I'm talking about the average, typical, healthy couple without complications.
quote:
It's possible the wife's reproductive ability, or even life, is compromised in the abortion procedure.
True. However, she is more likely to have complications and die from childbirth than from an abortion.
quote:
You pose marriage in 'contractual' terms, in order to keep you argument clear and 'purely logical.' However, I really don't think that's a justified move. I think we can agree that people don't generally get married for purely practical, or contractual reasons.
Yes, but those reasons can reasonably be discussed in contractual terms. Even if they aren't necessarily legal contracts (which, at the moment, they are), they are societal contracts. Again, we still have these laws that put legal issues on fertility in marriage precisely because we have a societal disposition about it. We didn't legislate morality...we moralized the law.
quote:
And I think if you analyze the 'irrational' aspects of marriage, that these aspects WILL have a bearing on how a vasectomy and an abortion are related.
So help me out. What are they?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Ben!, posted 11-23-2004 1:25 AM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Wounded King, posted 11-23-2004 5:45 AM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 8 by Ben!, posted 11-23-2004 8:41 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 6 of 8 (162549)
11-23-2004 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Rrhain
11-23-2004 5:30 AM


Re: Ben's Argument Analysis (where's the damn sheep smiley?? )
I think that it could be argued that there are cases both where an abortion may be unexpectedly final, if there are associated complications, and that a vasectomy or tubal ligation need not be.
If you allow that these are not neccessarily irreversible choices then is a wife taking oral contraception without her husband's knowledge equally in breach of their contractual obligations?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Rrhain, posted 11-23-2004 5:30 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3478 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 7 of 8 (162582)
11-23-2004 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rrhain
11-22-2004 9:50 PM


quote:
Instead, a vasectomy is comparable to a tubal ligation and if I am not mistaken, those places that require a wife's permission in order for the husband to get a vasectomy also require a husband's permission in order for a wife to get a tubal ligation.
In my state they do.
quote:
I simply want to know if others think my analysis is right that you cannot compare sterilization to abortion.
I think you are right. Sterilization would not be an accurate comparison to abortion.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rrhain, posted 11-22-2004 9:50 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1419 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 8 of 8 (162595)
11-23-2004 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Rrhain
11-23-2004 5:30 AM


Re: Ben's Argument Analysis (where's the damn sheep smiley?? )
Rrhain,
Thanks for bearing with me. For lengthy posts, I find it's much easier to decide on premises FIRST, and THEN talk about the conclusions. Otherwise, people are apt to mix arguments against premises with the fact taht they want to argue against the conclusion.
Rrhain writes:
quote:
... it seems to me that the 'historical significance' of marriage is much less important than the CURRENT social attitudes and expectations for marriage.
I agree, but I would point out that the laws are still around because societally, we still hold those attitudes.
Fair enough, I think so too. I think it's an important point that might cause hangup in your discussions. You and whoever argues with you might simply be disagreeing on the current attitudes towards marriage (and even using their own attitudes instead of societal). So that's why I brought it up. No change to the result of the argument, then.
Rrhain writes:
quote:
... I still think you're glossing too lightly over the statement that abortion is a one-time deal. That can only be said on a case-by-case basis. Many couples also struggle to have children
Too, I don't want to get bogged down in the unusual and the bizarre.
I definitely think infertility is common enough (not by menopause, strange circumstances, but simply ... that's the way it is! low sperm count, irregular ovulation, etc) that this is an important point. Anybody who dabbles in the stock market knows that current gains are no promise for future returns. You can bet on the future, but the likelihood of it happening is unknown.
However, I agree that this bogs down the argument; I think it's a valid approach that somebody might try and get to you on, however. Well, that's how it struck me.
Rrhain writes:
quote:
You pose marriage in 'contractual' terms... I really don't think that's a justified move. I think we can agree that people don't generally get married for purely practical, or contractual reasons.
Yes, but those reasons can reasonably be discussed in contractual terms. Even if they aren't necessarily legal contracts (which, at the moment, they are), they are societal contracts. Again, we still have these laws that put legal issues on fertility in marriage precisely because we have a societal disposition about it. We didn't legislate morality...we moralized the law.
Here is where I think there is a big weakness in your argument. If you allow for PERSONAL 'irrational' aspects of marriage, then... the cleanliness and pure logical terms of your argument are shown to be invalidly applied. I'll (try) to explain.
Marriage is not just a legal or social contract, but a personal one as well. I think one of the 'social contracts' implicit in marriage is that you know the values and judgements of the other person, and that you are willing to work with that.
In other words, if you marry an irrational partner, does that mean you are 'justified' in ignoring them, of doing things differently? I would answer this question with a resounding NO! Marriage is of equals; by choosing an irrational partner, you have agreed to work with the person to find solutions that are mutually agreeable. And the fact is, EVERYBODY is irrational about some things. So, this isn't an uncommon or strange situation.
Where am I going with this, right? Well, if you accept that--that in a marriage, you work with the other person, then putting a value on abortion or vasectomy, within a marriage, is NOT a personal decision. In fact, that value is not absolute anymore. That value must be determined by the couple.
To summarize, your argument abstracts away the irrational aspects of marriage, leaving only bare logic to govern. You use this step to make a purely logical (biological) argument about the 'value' of a vasectomy vs. abortion. I think the only error you make is in removing this aspect of irrationality. This aspect is what makes the value of a vasectomy, and the value of an abortion, DEPENDENT on the agreement of the couple. That is what marriage is. A meeting of the unlike minds. And that is why your argument fails--there is no absolute value for those two things, only the value as determined by the couple. It's not OK for one of the two to determine the value alone.
I hope that makes some sense; I feel I did a poor job explaining.
Ben

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Rrhain, posted 11-23-2004 5:30 AM Rrhain has not replied

  
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