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Author Topic:   According to the Bible, the entire Jewish religion is unwilling to do Gods will
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 9 (515015)
07-14-2009 7:42 PM


16Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

16Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%207;&version=31;

Now the key part here is that "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own"

Note: In Context, the Will of God can't simply mean to follow Jesus, because that would make the entire statement logically flawed. It would read as "choose to believe in me and you will find out if you should believe in me.". Logically, it should be that someone should be making a choice to try and discern God's will.

This being taken to mean that anyone choosing to do Gods will will known if Jesus is telling the truth. Now, the problem here is people attempt to do God's will who both believe and disbelieve in Jesus. Now, the Jewish people certainly believe they are doing Gods will, they have chosen to do so and they think the Jesus does not exist. This creates somewhat of a predicament with the last line. Either

1. Every Jewish person in the last 2000 years has not chosen to try and follow Gods will.

2. Jesus is not from God, meaning his statements are not necessarily divine and true.

Expected rebuttals

The only one I can think of is covered in my Note. If Gods will is to believe in Jesus, then the entire statement would be logically flawed and would not make sense in the context. Jesus was talking to a group of Jewish people. He was saying to look to God to discern if Jesus's words are right or not. It would make no sense for him to tell the crowd to believe Jesus is doing Gods work before discerning if Jesus is doing Gods work.


Replies to this message:
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Message 2 of 9 (515048)
07-15-2009 7:44 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 9 (515053)
07-15-2009 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by themasterdebator
07-14-2009 7:42 PM


themasterdebator writes:

Either

1. Every Jewish person in the last 2000 years has not chosen to try and follow Gods will.

2. Jesus is not from God, meaning his statements are not necessarily divine and true.

3) Or the old standby: "You are reading it wrong, my sect says it means:"

themasterdebator writes:

In Context, the Will of God can't simply mean to follow Jesus, because that would make the entire statement logically flawed.


And you think logical flaws stops religious people from claiming it? Heck, the Bible is supposedly correct because God wouldn't lie, and that is proven by the Bible saying so!

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1847 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 4 of 9 (515131)
07-15-2009 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by themasterdebator
07-14-2009 7:42 PM


God's Will
quote:
1. Every Jewish person in the last 2000 years has not chosen to try and follow Gods will.

2. Jesus is not from God, meaning his statements are not necessarily divine and true.


John 7
14Not until halfway through the Feast did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. 15The Jews were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having studied?"

16Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?"

Going strictly with writers in the Bible, I'm not sure how you came to your two choices.

The estimated range of dating for the Book of John is 90-150CE. Christianity was no longer a sect of Judaism. According to Edgar Goodspeed the manuscript was written to meet the needs of the Greek public of the early second century.

To meet the needs of this Greek public some adjustment had to be made. Christianity was addressing it in Jewish terms. A Greek who felt like becoming a Christian was called upon to accept Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah. He would naturally ask what this meant and would have to be given a short course in Jewish apocalyptic messianic thought. Was there no way in which he might be introduced directly to the values of the Christian salvation without being forever routed, we might even say detoured, through Judaism? Must Christianity always speak in a Jewish vocabulary?

The writers of the OT make it clear that God's will is to follow his commands.

Deuteronomy 13
1. If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder,
2. and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them,"
3. you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.
4. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.

So those who are following God's will or commands will know if Jesus is presenting an incorrect teaching. What little we have of Jesus' teachings in the synoptic gospels, don't show that he taught contrary to Mosaic/Jewish Law.

Oddly enough, the Book of John was written for Greeks who probably didn't know the OT or the Mosaic/Jewish Laws. They wouldn't really know if the Jesus character in the Book of John was teaching God's will or not.

quote:
Note: In Context, the Will of God can't simply mean to follow Jesus, because that would make the entire statement logically flawed. It would read as "choose to believe in me and you will find out if you should believe in me.". Logically, it should be that someone should be making a choice to try and discern God's will.

This being taken to mean that anyone choosing to do Gods will will known if Jesus is telling the truth. Now, the problem here is people attempt to do God's will who both believe and disbelieve in Jesus. Now, the Jewish people certainly believe they are doing Gods will, they have chosen to do so and they think the Jesus does not exist. This creates somewhat of a predicament with the last line. Either


I assume you're still in the Book of John and referring to verse 37-39.

37 On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Since he is standing in front of the people he wasn't asking them to believe in his existence. He's was asking the people to put their trust in him. The next step is to see if the scripture does say that. It isn't in the OT that I can find.

The Jews who currently follow the laws of God as given through the Tanakh and Oral Laws according to tradition have chosen to follow God's will.

The Jesus in this Gospel doesn't necessarily teach about the Kingdom or behavior as pointed out by Goodspeed.

The new narrative differed from the older ones in many details. In it Jesus' ministry falls almost wholly in Judea instead of in Galilee and seems to cover three years instead of one. The cleansing of the Temple stands at the beginning instead of at the end of his work. Nothing is said of his baptism, temptation, or agony in the garden. His human qualities disappear, and he moves through the successive scenes of the gospel perfect master of every situation, until at the end he goes of his own accord to his crucifixion and death. He does not teach in parables, and his teaching deals, not as in the earlier gospels with the Kingdom of God, but with his own nature and his inward relation to God.

Claiming divinity in front of Jews would have put Jesus at odds with the Mosaic/Jewish Laws or God's will.

The author of John probably wasn't quoting Jesus.

Excerpt from Goodspeed
The Gospel of John is a charter of Christian experience. For the evangelist, to know Christ through inner experience matters more than to have seen him face to face in Galilee. "Blessed be those who believe without having seen me," 20:29. What supremely matters in religion is not so much what men said or did, here or there, but the power of the Christian experience to create itself anew in the human heart, no matter where or when. Without that what would all the dogmas, all the liturgies, and all the literatures be worth to us?

Edited by purpledawn, : Fix Link


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by themasterdebator, posted 07-14-2009 7:42 PM themasterdebator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by themasterdebator, posted 07-16-2009 12:58 AM purpledawn has responded

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 9 (515168)
07-16-2009 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by purpledawn
07-15-2009 4:33 PM


Re: God's Will
I am going to need some clarification on your perspective purpledawn based on how you worded your responses. Do you believe the four Gospels are all fully accurate descriptions of Jesus's life? Because I can agree with your perspective if you are saying John wrote this with the intent of teaching the Greeks and not as fully accurate descriptions of Jesus's life, hence why I wrote "the Bible" instead of the book of John.

When you look at the story in context of the Bible, Jesus claims "my teachings aren't my own they come from the one who sent me" which would be claiming that Jesus was sent from God(unless you can provide someone else who would send him). He goes further to say that those doing God's will are able to see if Jesus was really sent by God. If the Jewish people are really intent on doing Gods will, then they would be able to see if Jesus is really sent be God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by purpledawn, posted 07-15-2009 4:33 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by purpledawn, posted 07-16-2009 7:43 AM themasterdebator has responded

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 3030 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 6 of 9 (515169)
07-16-2009 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by themasterdebator
07-14-2009 7:42 PM


Some Jews found out that Jesus's teachings came from God ...

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1847 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 7 of 9 (515202)
07-16-2009 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by themasterdebator
07-16-2009 12:58 AM


Re: God's Will
quote:
Because I can agree with your perspective if you are saying John wrote this with the intent of teaching the Greeks and not as fully accurate descriptions of Jesus's life, hence why I wrote "the Bible" instead of the book of John.
That's what I said in my post. I look at the reality of the Bible. The Gospel writers are unknown and written after the destruction of the Temple. The Book of Mark being the earliest and probably a more Jewish view. "The Bible" doesn't carry accountability. The actual writer does. If only one writer makes the comment, how is that in context with the entire Bible? You need to show what "context" you're talking about.

So if one is posing the idea that every Jewish person in the last 2000 years has not chosen to try and follow Gods will, then one has to look at the author who actually wrote the statement and not attribute the statement to the whole Bible.

quote:
If the Jewish people are really intent on doing Gods will, then they would be able to see if Jesus is really sent be God.
I addressed that in Message 4. What didn't you understand?

The writers of the OT make it clear that God's will is to follow his commands.
So those who are following God's will or commands will know if Jesus is presenting an incorrect teaching.
What little we have of Jesus' teachings in the synoptic gospels, don't show that he taught contrary to Mosaic/Jewish Law.
Claiming divinity in front of Jews would have put Jesus at odds with the Mosaic/Jewish Laws or God's will.

If the account took place as described in the Gospel of John, then the Jews were doing God's will by not accepting Jesus.
If the account didn't take place, the writing is a tool of the new religion, not a true account and irrelevant concerning what the Jews have done for the last 2000 years.

The Gospel of John by Edgar Goodspeed
By the early years of the second century the Christian movement had reached a point where it had become clear that the field of Christianity was the Greek world. Its public was to be the men and women not necessarily of Greek blood but of Greek speech and Greek culture. The long discipline of Greek civilization had prepared a people capable of appreciating the inward and spiritual values of the new religion. These people had, in fact, in no small degree already helped to shape its thought and life. To them, at any rate, Christianity was now addressing itself.

If you're going to lump the writers together, then you need to show support from the rest of the Bible for your thoughts and not just the Book of John. The "Bible" available to the Jews of the time would have been the Hebrew Bible.

I agree that the idea of the statement is meant to say that if the Jews didn't believe Jesus was sent by God, then they aren't doing God's will, but it probably wasn't made to actual Jews.

As far as whether Jesus' statements were divine and true can only be applied to those statements made in the Book of John. The author of John can't speak for the other writings. Each writing has to be checked against the OT.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by themasterdebator, posted 07-16-2009 12:58 AM themasterdebator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by themasterdebator, posted 07-18-2009 10:26 PM purpledawn has responded

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 9 (515555)
07-18-2009 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by purpledawn
07-16-2009 7:43 AM


Re: God's Will
Purple, then I have to ask, wouldn't that mean you are not putting your trust in God who guided the writers to infallibly write the Bible, but in flawed humans?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by purpledawn, posted 07-16-2009 7:43 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by purpledawn, posted 07-19-2009 4:31 AM themasterdebator has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1847 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 9 of 9 (515560)
07-19-2009 4:31 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by themasterdebator
07-18-2009 10:26 PM


Infallible
quote:
Purple, then I have to ask, wouldn't that mean you are not putting your trust in God who guided the writers to infallibly write the Bible, but in flawed humans?
I trust the common sense that God gave me to discern the viability of current doctrine. Do the ancient writers support the doctrines being sold today? If not, then we try to understand what message the writers were inspired to deliver to their audience.

What definition do you use for infallible concerning the Bible writings?

Infalliable
1 : incapable of error : unerring 2 : not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint : certain 3 : incapable of error in defining doctrines touching faith or morals

Inspiration is not dictation. Inspiration does not negate the possibility of errors.

Are only canonized writings infallible, were the redactors infallible, were the scribes infallible, were the men who created the Jewish canon infallible, were the men who created the Christian canon infallible, are translators infallible, are clergy infallible?

Since the God of the Bible is capable of error, why not man when inspired by God? Religion changes as mankind changes.

As I've said many times, the writers wrote for their audiences and their times. They weren't writing to us. What is right for their time, isn't automatically going to be right for us today.

Since we don't have original manuscripts and the writings we do have are over 1500 years old, we have to allow for "drift". IOW, the original languages are dead languages, humor and idioms tend to get lost in translation, and culture differences impact perception.

If the writings of the Bible were intended for us today, then God failed to ensure clear and unaltered transmission.

ABE: The writer who stated all scripture is inspired by God would have been referring to the Jewish canon, not the writings of the NT or his own writings. Of course no one seems to pay attention to the rest of the sentence.

...and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

The verse may have been a response to Marcion's repudiation of the Jewish scripture. The writer reasserted the ancient scripture's usefulness within Christianity. Chapter 3 deals with behavior.

Edited by purpledawn, : ABE


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by themasterdebator, posted 07-18-2009 10:26 PM themasterdebator has not yet responded

  
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