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Author Topic:   Squaring circles: direct biblical contradictions
Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5429 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 1 of 6 (531416)
10-17-2009 4:57 PM


The rationale for justifying any of my beliefs stems from an overarching belief that the Bible is the word of God. Once I've accepted that, there isn't much need to justify any specific belief arising from that overarching acceptance: God says it's so - who am I to argue with God?
This statement sums up the feelings of many christians about the bible. It's the word of god, and cannot be disputed. That's all very well, but the question is: which parts of it are "the word of god"? The reason why I ask is that there are many parts of the bible which directly contradict one another, and there is some extremely strange (and sometimes downright dangerous) advice in there, if you examine the whole document. Here's a few, for a kick-off:
1. It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil:
Genesis 2:15-17 (King James Version)
And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil:
Hebrews 5:13-14 (King James Version)
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
2. While he is drunk, Lot's two daughters "lie with him," become pregnant, and give birth to his offspring:
Genesis 19:30-38 (King James Version)
And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
Lot was "just". [So much for the bible as a moral compass!]
2 Peter 2:7 (King James Version)
And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
3.God tempts Abraham:
Genesis 22:1-12 (King James Version)
Genesis 22
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
God never tempts anyone:
James 1:13 (King James Version)
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
4. Honour your father and mother:
Exodus 20:12 (King James Version)
Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Jesus says that he has come to divide families; that a man's foes will be those of his own household; that you must hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and even your own life to be a disciple:
Matthew 10:35-37 (King James Version)
For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Luke 12:51-53 (King James Version)
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Luke 14:26 (King James Version)
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
5. God prohibits killing:
Exodus 20:13 (King James Version)
Thou shalt not kill.
God orders killing:
Exodus 32:27 (King James Version)
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
Deuteronomy 7:2 (King James Version)
And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
6. Take revenge on your enemies:
Deuteronomy 19:21 (King James Version)
And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.
Or perhaps not:
Matthew 5:38-44 (King James Version)
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
7. Sisera was sleeping when Jael killed him:
Judges 4:21 (King James Version)
Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died.
Sisera was standing:
Judges 5:25-27 (King James Version)
He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish.
She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.
At her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay down: at her feet he bowed, he fell: where he bowed, there he fell down dead.
There are hundreds more. This doesn't even begin to address inconsistencies across different versions of the bible...

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPD, posted 10-17-2009 8:38 PM Blzebub has replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 6 (531435)
10-17-2009 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Blzebub
10-17-2009 4:57 PM


Needs Support
I'm not inclined to promote this topic as written because it is inconsistent.
The title and the lack of argument presented deals with contradictions, but the question asked concerns which parts of the Bible are "the word of God".
If you want to know which parts of the Bible are "the word of God", but feel that inconsistencies or bad advice negate that; then show why specific inconsistencies or bad advice mean the writings are not the word of God. I'd like to see a reasoned argument that shows you have taken into account the context and purpose of the writers.
I assume you want this in accuracy and inerrancy. If yes, that means you also have to show evidence for what you are saying. If not, please let me know which forum.
Edited by AdminPD, : Typo
Edited by AdminPD, : Correction

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Blzebub, posted 10-17-2009 4:57 PM Blzebub has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Blzebub, posted 10-18-2009 4:21 AM AdminPD has replied

Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5429 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 3 of 6 (531458)
10-18-2009 4:21 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPD
10-17-2009 8:38 PM


Re: Needs Support
I don't understand what you want me to do.
Christians say that the word of god, as written in the bible, is indisputable.
I've presented several biblical instances where this is clearly not the case, because the bible gives conflicting advice, and I'm asking how do christians reconcile these.
"It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil" is not consistent with "it is immature to be unable to tell good from evil"
Lot is described as a "just" man, despite the fact that he impregnated his daughters.
The bible says God never tempts any man. God tempts Abraham.
Honour your father and mother is one of the 10 commandments; Jesus says that he has come to divide families; that a man's foes will be those of his own household; that you must hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, and even your own life to be a disciple.
God prohibits killing, but later god orders killing.
Does the bible advise taking revenge, or not?
Sisera was sleeping when Jael killed him. Sisera was standing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPD, posted 10-17-2009 8:38 PM AdminPD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminPD, posted 10-18-2009 5:22 AM Blzebub has replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 4 of 6 (531461)
10-18-2009 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Blzebub
10-18-2009 4:21 AM


Re: Needs Support
I'm still assuming you want this in the accuracy and inerrancy thread.
There have been many threads on inconsistencies and reconciliation. If all you want is to see how Christians reconcile inconsistencies in the Christian Bible, then narrow the thread down to addressing just a specific few inconsistencies and explain or show evidence as to why they are inconsistencies that need to be reconciled.
But if you are wanting to discuss the question: Which parts of it are "the word of god"? and use inconsistencies as evidence against it being the word of God (which I assume is your point); then you need to make an argument. We shouldn't have to assume your point. IOW, explain why you feel inconsistencies are evidence that the Bible or parts of it are not the word of God?
If you're wanting to discuss whether God or the Bible can or should be questioned or not, then you really need to clarify your position.
Right now, all I see is a thread to make Christians jump through hoops to reconcile inconsistencies, but to what end?
What is your contention?
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Blzebub, posted 10-18-2009 4:21 AM Blzebub has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Blzebub, posted 10-18-2009 6:12 AM AdminPD has not replied

Blzebub 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5429 days)
Posts: 129
Joined: 10-10-2009


Message 5 of 6 (531467)
10-18-2009 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminPD
10-18-2009 5:22 AM


Re: Needs Support
all I see is a thread to make Christians jump through hoops to reconcile inconsistencies
Huh? My point is that the bible directly contradicts itself, and does so innumerable times. It does so in many different ways. Conflicting advice is given. Even simple stuff such as the Jael murder story has two different scenarios.
Even one such instance is not consistent with the christian concept of a "perfect" god.
So, either the bible isn't actually the word of god, as is rather likely, or this god speaks with a forked tongue.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AdminPD, posted 10-18-2009 5:22 AM AdminPD has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 6 of 6 (531499)
10-18-2009 9:41 AM


Thread Copied to The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy Forum
Thread copied to the Squaring circles: direct biblical contradictions thread in the The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

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