To admin Here is the New topic I recommended, I hpoe it meets with your approval. I suppose it could go in the Bible study area, of course Ill let you decide that, I really dont know. Thanks for your consideration
Jaywill writes:
The question I would have for you Peg, is are you part of the "us" Paul mentions or not ? If you offer as an explanation that the Bible speaks of many gods and many lords therefore Jesus is one of those many other gods, then I doubt that you are in the brotherhood of Christian faith that Paul indicates as the "us" ... "Yet to us there is one God ..."
Jehovah's Witnesses teach pagan polytheism and excuse their polytheism by offering 1 Cor. 8:5,6 as proof that Scripture gives them the right to teach that there are many gods.
In effect they are saying "For US Jehovah's Witnesses there are many gods".
They must not be a part of the "us" of the brotherhood of the Christian church to which there is one God.
John 10 writes:
In order to get around the clear revelation that "God was the Word," Jehovah's Witnesses have created their own translation of the Bible - the New World Translation - which says Jesus was a god, thus making Jesus a created being.
No Christian group uses the New World Translation Bible and Jehovah's Witnesses make very little use of other Bibles, relying instead on their own the New World Translation Bible.
When any group can write their own bible as do JW's, they can make it say whatever suits their beliefs.
But God who has revealed Himself as the Word who created all things, and then entered the world He created becoming flesh, declares,
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
Those who do not receive "God the Word who became flesh" cannot become children of God.
It's as simple and as difficult as that!
In the previous thread Peg represented Jehovah's witnesses position on whether Jesus was God.. I think it is safe to say they do not believe Jesus was and is not God in the sense of being the eternal God, mentioned in the Bible. Each side was convinced of their position and the correctness of thier beliefs. Neither side seems to be diswayed from their doctrinal belief. Due to the extreme nature of that doctrine, one would naturally wonder if it becomes a matter of fellowship. By fellowship I mean of course, whether we would consider Peg and those that believe as she does a member of the body of Christ in the first place and whether we could have fellowship with them. Would this doctrine that Jesus is not the eternal God, be enough to part fellowship with Peg and those that believe as they do concerning this matter? One may not consider them brothers and sisters in Christ to begin with, if that is the case, those issues could be a backdrop for the initial framework of this discussion.
To start the ball rolling I would state that the scriptures are very clear that we are to correct and disfellowship in matters of moral principles, to this we can all agree, even Peg and their little group, ha ha (just kidding Peg)
There is however and has always been two areas that "Christians" have made matters of fellowship concerning matters of doctrine. Those areas are of course, what it takes to become a child of God and what one believes and teaches after one is a child of God.
What I would like discussed in this thread is whether Peg or ourselves considers each other brothers or sisters in Christ, members of the body of Christ to begin with and whether the nature of the Godhead is an issue to divide and part company for holding and maintaining such a belief in the first place.
Do Jehovah’s witnesses consider those that have obeyed the Gospel according to the scriptures, their brothers and sisters in Christ. If they do, would and does the doctrine of the non-deity or deity of Christ, become a matter of fellowship for them and us?
Do mainstream christians consider JWs as members of the body of Christ and if they do would they part company from a fellowship matter, due to the doctrine of the deity of Christ?
Again Jaywill writes:
We should seek to be born again in your human spirit. But to do that you have to receive Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior God.
But you resist that because the Kingdom Hall taught you that Jesus Christ is the angel Michael. You are being deceived Peg.
here again we are getting some hints concerning his position
There are two passages I would like to begin with, Galatians 1:6
"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!"
2 John 1:1
"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not I only, but also all they that know the truth; 1:2for the truth's sake which abideth in us, and it shall be with us for ever: 1:3Grace, mercy, peace shall be with us, from God the Father, and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love. 1:4I rejoice greatly that I have found certain of thy children walking in truth, even as we received commandment from the Father. 1:5And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote to thee a new commandment, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. 1:6And this is love, that we should walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, even as ye heard from the beginning, that ye should walk in it. 1:7For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 1:8Look to yourselves, that ye lose not the things which we have wrought, but that ye receive a full reward. 1:9Whosoever goeth onward and abideth not in the teaching of Christ, hath not God: he that abideth in the teaching, the same hath both the Father and the Son. 1:10If any one cometh unto you, and bringeth not this teaching, receive him not into your house, and give him no greeting: 1:11for he that giveth him greeting partaketh in his evil works. 1:12Having many things to write unto you, I would not write them with paper and ink: but I hope to come unto you, and to speak face to face, that your joy may be made full. 1:13The children of thine elect sister salute thee."
Are these passage stating, the doctrine about the nature and mission of Christ or are they speaking to every doctrinal detail about what Christ preached and taught?
IOWs, must we get every doctrinal detail correct, to maintain fellowship. Further, where is the dividing line from a doctrinal standpoint? Since all of us do not have everything correct, (except for myself of course), how much and what is the nature of doctrinal disagreement to part company, with those that profess to believe in Christ as the Son of God. Is belief in Gods son and accepting as the Savior enough or do we at some point make inter-doctrinal issues a matter of faith and fellowship a contention.
I am not yet stating a position here, just yet, I am simply asking the Christians here, their perspective, of course from a Biblical perspective.
Since we are told to believe that Jesus is God’s son and that he is the Messiah, yet not specifically commanded to believe that Jesus is God, does this constitute a matter of debarkation for au to fellowship with such individuals.
I hope this makes sense. I look forward to all the Christians and non-Christians perspective on this subject, but please try and keep it in a Biblical perspective, for those that are not specifically Christian
EAM
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
Edited by EMA, : No reason given.
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