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Author Topic:   archaeology and evolution
archaeologist
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Message 1 of 96 (574425)
08-15-2010 7:59 PM


please put this in a non-scientific forum so that i can continue to participate in its discussion.
-------------------------------------------------

i am involved in another forum who has a thread titled like this, unfortunately the people responding to it are not very educated and do not know what they are talking about. so i will make an initial post in notation forum to get things started.

abstract: archaeology proves the Bible not evolution true and accurate.

reasons:

1. the amarna, ugarite and other ancient tablets provide the names of the patriarchs (though not speaking of the patriarchs themselves) were in use at the time the Bible records them.

2. the price of selling joseph as a slave in Gen. 37 (20 shekals) was the correct price of that time. proven true by KA Kitchen a well respected egyptologist by both christian andnon-christian scholars and archaeologist.

3. every nation has a flood or creation story. if creation and the flood did not happen then they would not have such stories nor would most of them be similar to the Genesis flood or creation.

if evolution were true we would be finding evolutionary tales, bedtime stories, myths in the ancient records along with tales of intermediary species, and so on. there are NONE anywhere in the world. the earliest recorded evolutionary idea was found in 6th century BC china (after the flood by bill cooper) long after the very ancient civilizations died out or were in the process of changing.

4.

Hebrew national tradition excels all others in its clear picture of tribal and family origins. In Egypt, and Babylonia, in Assyria and Pheonicia, in Greece and Rome we look in vain for anything comparable. There is nothing like it in the tradition of the Germanic peoples. Neither India nor China can produce anything similar, since their earliest historical memories are literary deposits of distorted dynastic traditions, with no trace of herdsman or peasnt behind the demigod or king with whom their records begin...In contrast with these other peoples the Israelites preserved anunusually clear picture of simple beginnings, of complex migrations, and of extreme vicissitudes...

{Albright, p. 1, The Biblical period from Abraham to Ezra}

5. the moabite stone, the merneptah stele and other monuments, mss. and historical evidence that places the israelites as a nation in the historical reference at the time the Bible records. {Lost treasures of the Bible by Fant and reddish and other sources by different authors}

6. the non-Israeli nations, with their correct rulers in their correct times are accurate as recorded in the Bible and proven true by archaeological discoveries and exploration. (see the magazines:Bible and Spade, BAR, Archaeological Odyssey, Bibilical Archaeologist and Bible Review; and many, many books on the subject for details)

7. the historical Jesus is not disputed by any reputable scholar and we have extra-biblical references to Him and His followers from ancient historians. (Habermas- The Historical Jesus and other sources by different authors)

8. NO eyewitness accounts from Jesus and His disciples contemporary eneimes providing evidence that what they disciples wrote in the Bible is false.

9. no record form the soldeirs standing guard that the ressurrection did not take place as recorded in the Bible.

10 no pharisaical work from that time disputes the NT acounts nor the OT for that matter.

11. NO ancient record disputing one thing about the OT and its interactions with other nations. Silence is not refutation nor disputing. the Egyptians are well known to alter their own history (RK Harriosn in Old Testament Times and other sources by different authors) tomake themselves look good.

12. no proof that the Israelites copied from other nations though the Old Babylonians were known to do that (Mesopotamia and the Bible ed. by Chavalas and Younger pg. 163)

and so much more. YET in all of the discoveries and in all of the research, digging, and investigation not one word about evolution or its existence is found.

now the argument that the ancients could not discover evolution because it did not have the tools, or the intellect or whatever, just doesn't hold water. these are people who accomplished much in their life times, constructing buildings that lasted 4,000 or more years, without modern tools made them exactly square, had the Pythagorium Theorum 2,000 years before Pythagorius, did excellent dental work, had flush toilets, hot and cold running water and much much more. (Return to Sodom and Gomorrah by Pelligrino andother sources by different authors).

you would think that with that kind of intelligence they would know how to figure out if creation was true or not then leave written documentation to record their findings for future generations (babylonians were known to leave time capsules for future generations- Ibid Pelligrino)and guess what not one ancient civilization questioned creation or the flood.

let's hear your well reasoned and fact filled responses.

Edited by archaeologist, : No reason given.


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Admin
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Message 2 of 96 (574427)
08-15-2010 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by archaeologist
08-15-2010 7:59 PM


Hi Archaeologist!

This doesn't really fit neatly into any single forum category, and it isn't the questioning of the rules of science that I was expecting, so I'm going to put this in Free For All. There's no moderation over there (hence the name), so take care.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Admin
Director
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Message 3 of 96 (574429)
08-15-2010 8:26 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the archaeology and evolution thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

    
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2448 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


(1)
Message 4 of 96 (574434)
08-15-2010 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by archaeologist
08-15-2010 7:59 PM


3. every nation has a flood or creation story. if creation and the flood did not happen then they would not have such stories nor would most of them be similar to the Genesis flood or creation.

I'll start with the simplist one.

Sure all civilizations have creation myths and those that live on coasts and where there are major rivers have flood myths, but other that the Gilgamesh epic which come from the same source as the biblical flood that is Sumeria, none of the flood myths are similar. As for other ctreation myths, again there is no similarity.

Some are:

Slain Monster Creation Story - The world is created from parts of a slain monster ( Kabyles of Africa, Koreans, Sumero-Babylonians)

Primodial Parents Creation Story - The world was created by interaction of primodial parents (Cook Islanders, Egyptians, Greeks, Luiseño Indians, Tahitians, Zuñi Indians)

Cosmic Egg Creation Story - The world was generated from an egg
(Chinese, Finns, Greeks, Hindus, Japanese, Persians, Samoans)

Sea Creation Story - The world was created from out of the sea (Burmese, Choctaw Indians,Egyptians,Icelanders Maui Hawaiians,Sumerians)

plus the Spoken edict Creation story which is what the Hebrew story is But also Egyptians, Greeks, Maidu Indians, Mayans & Sumerians had spoken edict stories.

Source:
Why People Believe Weird things, Michael Shermer pp.129-130


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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subbie
Member (Idle past 2 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 5 of 96 (574435)
08-15-2010 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by archaeologist
08-15-2010 7:59 PM


if evolution were true we would be finding evolutionary tales, bedtime stories, myths in the ancient records along with tales of intermediary species, and so on. there are NONE anywhere in the world. the earliest recorded evolutionary idea was found in 6th century BC china (after the flood by bill cooper) long after the very ancient civilizations died out or were in the process of changing.

and so much more. YET in all of the discoveries and in all of the research, digging, and investigation not one word about evolution or its existence is found.

No mention anywhere in the bible or any other ancient writings about electricity, so electromagnetism is obviously wrong. No mention anywhere about germs, bacteria or viruses, so obviously the germ theory of disease is wrong. No mention anywhere of the Americas, so obviously there is no New World. No mention anywhere of Neptune, so obviously that planet doesn't exist. No mention of the atomic structure of matter so obviously atoms don't exist.

No intelligence exhibited in anything you've written here, so obviously ....


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus. -- Thomas Jefferson

For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack Obama

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate


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Coyote
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 6 of 96 (574437)
08-15-2010 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by archaeologist
08-15-2010 7:59 PM


archaeology proves...
abstract: archaeology proves the Bible not evolution true and accurate.

As has been detailed elsewhere in the Science Forum, archaeology shows there was no global flood at the time the biblical scholars place it (ca. 4,350 years ago).

Also, several branches of science (other than archaeology) show that the earth is ca. 4.5 billion years old, so those who claim a young earth based on the bible are showing that it is not accurate on that claim either.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1792
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 7 of 96 (574440)
08-15-2010 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by archaeologist
08-15-2010 7:59 PM


Principles of Logic and Critical Thinking

by Jeremy Moore May 24, 2005

Logic and critical thinking are lost arts in American public discourse, and most public education never broaches the topic. The following article offers college-level knowledge on logic and critical thinking.

http://www.googobits.com/...logic-and-critical-thinking.html


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Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16104
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 8 of 96 (574447)
08-15-2010 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by archaeologist
08-15-2010 7:59 PM


if evolution were true we would be finding evolutionary tales, bedtime stories, myths in the ancient records along with tales of intermediary species, and so on.

Why?


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 9 of 96 (574450)
08-15-2010 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by archaeologist
08-15-2010 7:59 PM


I've read some of your posts and understand that you refuse to accept anything other than the Bible. Whatever.

But what I don't understand is: What do you intend to accomplish here?

What's the point in doing this?

Honestly, you're comming off as a troll.


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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1792
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 10 of 96 (574453)
08-15-2010 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by archaeologist
08-15-2010 7:59 PM


This quote from an article in the Biblical Archeology Review.

“The heart has its reasons, which reason does not know.” This famous line from Pascal’s Pensées draws a wise distinction between religious faith and intellectual inquiry. The two have different motivations and pertain to different domains of experience. They are like oil and water, things that do not mix and should not be confused. Pascal was a brilliant mathematician, and he did not allow his Catholic beliefs to interfere with his scholarly investigations. He regarded the authority of the church to be meaningless in such matters. He argued that “all the powers in the world can by their authority no more persuade people of a point of fact than they can change it.”1 That is to say, facts are facts, and faith has no business dealing in the world of facts. Faith resides in the heart and in one’s way of living in the world.
http://www.bib-arch.org/bar/article.asp?PubID=BSBA&Volume...

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GDR
Member
Posts: 4961
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 11 of 96 (574455)
08-15-2010 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by ProtoTypical
08-15-2010 11:36 PM


These discussions drive me crazy as it feeds the myth that it is either evolution or Christianity. They are compatible unless one tries to read the Bible in a manner that was never intended. The Bible can be true without being literally true.

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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1792
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 12 of 96 (574458)
08-16-2010 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by GDR
08-15-2010 11:49 PM


These discussions drive me crazy as it feeds the myth that it is either evolution or Christianity. They are compatible unless one tries to read the Bible in a manner that was never intended. The Bible can be true without being literally true.

Yeah me too. I have a brother in law with similar views. He is a brilliant guy and very successful. Engineering type no less. I asked him about the galaxies that appear to be so far away and he goes all glassy eyed. It is like a physical impairment.


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archaeologist
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 96 (574466)
08-16-2010 5:07 AM


This doesn't really fit neatly into any single forum category, and it isn't the questioning of the rules of science that I was expecting, so I'm going to put this in Free For All. There's no moderation over there (hence the name), so take care.

no worries, i just wanted to put tsome thoughts out there to see what discussion would arise. they claoim that archaeology is a sc8ence now but from reading the responses, you wouldn't know it.

Sure all civilizations have creation myths and those that live on coasts and where there are major rivers have flood myths, but other that the Gilgamesh epic which come from the same source as the biblical flood that is Sumeria, none of the flood myths are similar. As for other ctreation myths, again there is no similarity.

why not post some links and i would show you some of the similarities but alsoyou need to keep in mind tht even though the details are not the same there is one glaring similarity--there was a creation and a flood.

why do you think the sumerians put it in their king's list? also, when people leave God for whatever belief they took up, it stands to reason that they would change the truth to fit their burgeoning religious or cultic beliefs.

which is why some myths have flying, fire breathing dragons, not that there were such a creature but that the stories got embellished so the warrior looked braver.

No mention anywhere in the bible or any other ancient writings about electricity, so electromagnetism is obviously wrong. No mention anywhere about germs, bacteria or viruses, so obviously the germ theory of disease is wrong. No mention anywhere of the Americas, so obviously there is no New World. No mention anywhere of Neptune, so obviously that planet doesn't exist. No mention of the atomic structure of matter so obviously atoms don't exist.

the babylonians had batteries thus they had electricity, they (all ancients) had flush toilets thus they knew about germs, bacteria and viruses. they had doctors and dentists thus they had theories of disease. they may not have mentioned the word 'americas' but they traveled to the land, we have roman wrecks off the coast of south america, thus there was a new world. and they had astronomers who charted the stars which means neptune would be included for it is in the heavens as well.

as for atoms, who knows, the minoans were known for having telescopes, they could have had microscopes as well but since their civilizatin was destroyed we may never know.

your last sentence certainly describes yourself.

As has been detailed elsewhere in the Science Forum, archaeology shows there was no global flood at the time the biblical scholars place it (ca. 4,350 years ago).

that is not true but you have never been correct yet.

several branches of science (other than archaeology) show that the earth is ca. 4.5 billion years old, so those who claim a young earth based on the bible are showing that it is not accurate on that claim either.

no they haven't. they have theorized or guessed or assumed but have never shown it to be that old. they cannot verify their so-called findings and never will.

Logic and critical thinking are lost arts in American public discourse, and most public education never broaches the topic. The following article offers college-level knowledge on logic and critical thinking.

off topic and ignored. people really think that secularists get to make the rules and determine what is what. just because it doesn't go your way doesn't mean it is wrong.

But what I don't understand is: What do you intend to accomplish here?...you're comming off as a troll.

it is a discussion forum and i put up a topic to be discussed and judging buy the answers i am receiving you all have nothing to refute my thesis. not a troll, just wanted to discuss something that was a bit different than the standard fare.

This famous line from Pascal’s Pensées draws a wise distinction between religious faith and intellectual inquiry

this is misleading and false for many. it may be true for some christians because they have no interest in deep academic or scholarly interaction but it is certainly not true for all. one good example would be ravi zacharias, a christian intellectual and philosopher. myself is another as i investigate and find the truth.

being religiious doesn't mean that there is no intellectual inquiry, that is just a myth on the part of the secularist. God initiated intelelcetualinquiry when He said 'get wisdom, understanding and knowledge'... and He said it to all of His followers. whether they oey or not is another story.

These discussions drive me crazy as it feeds the myth that it is either evolution or Christianity. They are compatible unless one tries to read the Bible in a manner that was never intended. The Bible can be true without being literally true.

that is exactly what it is, it is an either/or not a both/and situation. Jesus, and God, make this very clear. you cannot have both, you have to make a choice and it doesn't mean mixing the two together.

I have a brother in law with similar views. He is a brilliant guy and very successful. Engineering type no less. I asked him about the galaxies that appear to be so far away and he goes all glassy eyed. It is like a physical impairment.

have you ever thought that he may not have any interest in the cosmos and is happy with his engineering knowledge? just because a believer doesn't pursue your line of study doesn't mean they are not intelligent, uneducated or lack intellectual inquiry. their interests lie elsewhere, where they are needed.

Edited by archaeologist, : No reason given.


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Jumped Up Chimpanzee
Member (Idle past 3200 days)
Posts: 572
From: UK
Joined: 10-22-2009


Message 14 of 96 (574467)
08-16-2010 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by archaeologist
08-15-2010 7:59 PM


if evolution were true we would be finding evolutionary tales, bedtime stories, myths in the ancient records along with tales of intermediary species, and so on. there are NONE anywhere in the world.

Maybe the dinosaurs didn't like bedtime stories, or if they did it was just an oral tradition.

9. no record form the soldeirs standing guard that the ressurrection did not take place as recorded in the Bible.

I know. It's crazy. And there is no record from the soldiers either that it didn't rain pineapples, that the earth didn't turn into Dijon mustard, that people didn't start sneezing kangeroos.

i am involved in another forum who has a thread titled like this, unfortunately the people responding to it are not very educated and do not know what they are talking about.


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ProtoTypical
Member
Posts: 1792
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 15 of 96 (574500)
08-16-2010 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by archaeologist
08-16-2010 5:07 AM


Turkey Shoot
they may not have mentioned the word 'americas' but they traveled to the land, we have roman wrecks off the coast of south america, thus there was a new world.

Yes, we know there was a new world. I am surprised that you admit it though.

How is this different, then, from them not mentioning evolution?


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