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Author Topic:   "Chariot Wheels" In the Red Sea
PaulK
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Posts: 15394
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 1 of 43 (578973)
09-03-2010 8:31 AM


Since the issue keeps coming up - and since the posts which actually discuss the issue are way back in the archives it seems that a new tread is in order to go over the evidence.

For the initial post I will simply focus on the claims of chariot wheels.

Ron Wyatt

The claims originate with Ron Wyatt, an "amateur archaeologist". Amateurs can do good work, but there is no evidence that Ron Wyatt ever did any. Instead we see a whole stream of grandiose assertions, none of which have ever been adequately corroborated - and some of which are almost certainly false. Indeed, Ron Wyatt's claims are NOT accepted even by the major Young Earth Creationist organisations ICR or AiG, which would be expected to be strongly biased in favour of many of his claims.

This page has some more information on Ron Wyatt

There are three major claims of chariot wheels from the Wyatt camp.

The Gold Wheel

This wheel is the only clear wheel seen in photographs.

The Problems with the Gold Wheel

This wheel was allegedly seen on Wyatt's expedition, was left behind and has not been seen since. We have only the word of the Wyatt camp as to anything beyond the photograph which contains no scale or anything to clearly identify the location. The lack of a scale is especially important because it is standard archaeological practice to include one or some other indication of the size of the photographed object.

The story behind the discovery of the wheel is itself suspicious. Supposedly it was found while in a boat, using a "molecular frequency generator" a pseudoscientific device consisting of a pair of dowsing rods connected to a box of electronic junk - often literal junk. In fact in tests dowsing has been shown to work only when the operator knows what the result should be. If the story is true then it strongly suggests that Wyatt already knew that the wheel was there - likely planted by him.

And in fact the photograph does look rather as if the wheel was planted, clear of anything but a lump of coral that seems to rest on it. It also doesn't look much like a typical Egyptian chariot wheel. In fact one investigator did turn up a more plausible suggestion as to what it might be. A brass hand-wheel from an old steamship. These are apparently relatively cheap and easy to find. The size difference would not be a problem since there is nothing to measure it against.

In short the evidence seems to favour fraud in this case.

The Recovered Wheel

The Wyatt expedition claimed to have recovered a wheel and taken it to be identified by an Egyptian archaeologists who identified it immediately as coming from the 18th Dynasty.

Problems

This story comes only from the Wyatt camp, with no corroboration. The wheel itself is missing and cannot be examined. It all comes down to the word of Ron Wyatt and his associates.

Even worse, the 18th Dynasty is not too likely a time for the Exodus. In an effort to shoehorn it in the Wyatt camp attempted a massive rewrite of the history of that Dynasty, which relies multiple cases of identifying two distinct individuals as the same person - even Moses turns out to be two different people ! The evidence against this rewrite is so strong that it cannot be considered even remotely plausible. Another blow to the credibility of the Wyatt camp.

The Coral Formations

The region does appear to include a number of coral formations which resemble wheels on axles.

Problems

Nobody can actually tell if the formations actually grew around wheels - and if they did whether they are chariot wheels, or wheels from a much later period.

So far what evidence we do have seems to indicate a more recent origin. The amount of coral growth seems very, very small for a period of ~3500 years. The Wyatt camp reported traces of rust - which cannot possibly come from 18th Dynasty chariot wheels which would use no iron in their construction. If there are wheels under the coral then a more recent origin seems far more likely.

While it might be objected that these issues do not prove that the formations do not contain chariot wheels, that is far from providing any reason to think that they do. I have asked more than once for evidence that these formations do contain chariot wheels and gotten none.

Summary

So that is it. A suspect photograph. A suspect story. And coral formations that might contain wheels - but no evidence that those wheels came from chariots.

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


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Message 2 of 43 (579734)
09-05-2010 8:17 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the "Chariot Wheels" In the Red Sea thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1227 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 3 of 43 (579739)
09-05-2010 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
09-03-2010 8:31 AM


Why don't creationists fund a retrieval expedition?
I thought the now-you-seem-them, now-you-don't wheels took the cake, but recently Buz outdid them, demanding to know why scientists had not retrieved Wyatt's coral-encrusted wheels for testing.

How odd that creationists believe a proof of their meta-narrative sits in a known location, yet they do not (or cannot) fund an expedition to bring it home in triumph. If they truly believed ancient chariot wheel remains would prove their case, that expedition would have sailed many years ago.

We know why those coral-covered shapes will never see dry land.


Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

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jar
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Posts: 31282
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 4 of 43 (579740)
09-05-2010 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Omnivorous
09-05-2010 8:49 PM


Re: Why don't creationists fund a retrieval expedition?
Remember these are the same bright boys that find a Gold Wheel but take the rotted old wood wheel in for identification.

Dim bulbs save on energy I guess.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1227 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 5 of 43 (579741)
09-05-2010 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
09-05-2010 8:57 PM


Re: Why don't creationists fund a retrieval expedition?
So is there any reason to believe that an authentic chariot wheel found where they claim it to be would support any of their claims?

Usually a chariot wheel is just a chariot wheel--not an extraordinary relic that can prove an event that is otherwise without evidence.


Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

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jar
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Posts: 31282
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 6 of 43 (579743)
09-05-2010 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Omnivorous
09-05-2010 9:05 PM


Re: Why don't creationists fund a retrieval expedition?
Since everywhere the supposed Hebrews wandered was Egyptian Territory at the time and had been for hundreds of years and would be for many hundreds more? It would be shocking if there were NOT chariot wheels all over the place.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1227 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 7 of 43 (579744)
09-05-2010 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
09-05-2010 9:13 PM


Re: Why don't creationists fund a retrieval expedition?
Okay, so I'm a little rusty on my Wyatt Wheels

I recall now that this is supposed to be debris from the Egyptian army chasing Moses, et al.

They don't need a couple of chariot wheels; they need an entire drowned army. And that still wouldn't prove what they want without some other strong corroboration beyond Bible stories.


Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

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 Message 6 by jar, posted 09-05-2010 9:13 PM jar has responded

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jar
Member
Posts: 31282
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 8 of 43 (579747)
09-05-2010 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Omnivorous
09-05-2010 9:19 PM


Re: Why don't creationists fund a retrieval expedition?
Well, there is a little problem even with that. Remember, that was all Egyptian Territory. Egyptian Territory by conquest. Which means that Egyptian troops and armies had been trampling all over that area for many hundreds of years.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin arms ----> armies


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 366 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 9 of 43 (579748)
09-05-2010 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Omnivorous
09-05-2010 9:05 PM


Re: Why don't creationists fund a retrieval expedition?
So is there any reason to believe that an authentic chariot wheel found where they claim it to be would support any of their claims?

Usually a chariot wheel is just a chariot wheel--not an extraordinary relic that can prove an event that is otherwise without evidence.


Good archaeologists can do quite a bit with old relics. There are a lot of tests that can be applied to learn more from such things, and their contexts.

Unfortunately, some archaeologists are apologists first and archaeologists second. The scientific method comes second, behind finding support for a particular religious belief.

Such an archaeologist could not be trusted to adequately and accurately study such a find.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1227 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 10 of 43 (579749)
09-05-2010 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Coyote
09-05-2010 9:31 PM


Re: Why don't creationists fund a retrieval expedition?
Coyote writes:

Such an archaeologist could not be trusted to adequately and accurately study such a find.

Apparently, by his own lights, Wyatt couldn't even be trusted not to lose it.

Refreshing my memory with Paul's links, I am again amazed that anyone could fail to recognize the classic signs of fraud.


Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

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Theodoric
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Posts: 6583
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 11 of 43 (579757)
09-05-2010 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Omnivorous
09-05-2010 8:49 PM


Buz should hire Archy. Love to see what would come out of that. I truly do not think Archy is a real archaeologist, but neither are any of the creo greats. Sure would love to see his credentials. Archy once posted a link to his website and forum. It is a bit of a hoot. Just more reiterations of the crap he spews here.

Buz knows where to find the wheel he and Archy should go get it.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1227 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 12 of 43 (579760)
09-05-2010 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Theodoric
09-05-2010 10:26 PM


My thoughts exactly: in his shoes, I'd jump at the chance.

I'd help with funding.

Archy could probably yell that wheel out of the water. I'd pay a dollar to see that.


Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

Real things always push back.
-William James


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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 43 (579763)
09-05-2010 11:17 PM


Exodus Revealed Video
Perhaps it would be good to view Lennart Mollart's claimed evidence.

The primary reason further research has not been done is that Egypt has forbidden anything to be removed from the region under their jurisdiction and then there's the Saudis on the other side who have the Mt Sinai region restricted.

Likely the Muslims have a reluctance to verify anything Biblical which would look good for Israel.

Then there's the secularists who apparantly have no interest in verifying anything Biblical.

I have Lennart's complete video, the Exodus Revealed and his book, The Exodus Case. He's a scientist who has done scientific research on this and no crackpot. His exploration was undertaken after Wyatt's death and independently of Wyatt. Wyatt, who was not a scientst, was the one who first pioneered and explored the region.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 957 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 14 of 43 (579764)
09-05-2010 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Theodoric
09-05-2010 10:26 PM


Hi, Theodoric.

According to some website called Truth or Fiction (a site that is apparently aimed at debunking "eRumors"), the Egyptian government is not allowing artifacts to be taken out of the Red Sea, so Buz and Archy would only get arrested (probably by Muslims) for trying to corroborate this.


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


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Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1227 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 15 of 43 (579765)
09-05-2010 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
09-05-2010 11:17 PM


Re: Exodus Revealed Video
Buz writes:

Likely the Muslims have a reluctance to verify anything Biblical which would look good for Israel.

Wyatt claimed the Israelis prevented him from displaying his discoveries, though you seem to think they'd benefit from them.

I don't think you can blame this one on the Muslims.

Edited by Omnivorous, : Errant apostrophe.


Have you ever been to an American wedding? Where's the vodka? Where's the marinated herring?!
-Gogol Bordello

Real things always push back.
-William James


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