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Author Topic:   Why is your religon true and not the religion of others?
frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 1 of 47 (584650)
10-03-2010 9:43 AM


Although im an atheist, i often wonder what makes you theists so sure that that your religion is the one true religion.

for example:
why do you think allah is not real? Why do you believe that perun, zeus, odin, Thor, Vishna, Shiva, Ramma, Jupiter, Mars, Mithra, the grate đuđu up on the mountin and all the others are fakes while your god is the true one.

and on a noter note why do you believe that you version of the bible is the true word of god, and all the other versions interpret the word of god wrongly?


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AdminSlev
Member (Idle past 2925 days)
Posts: 113
Joined: 03-28-2010


Message 2 of 47 (584679)
10-03-2010 1:24 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Why is your religon true and not the religion of others? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 3 of 47 (584681)
10-03-2010 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
10-03-2010 9:43 AM


Of course I am not sure my religion is the right one. In fact I imagine that all religions including my religion are wrong.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 2925 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 4 of 47 (584682)
10-03-2010 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
10-03-2010 9:43 AM


Hi frako,

why do you think allah is not real? Why do you believe that perun, zeus, odin, Thor, Vishna, Shiva, Ramma, Jupiter, Mars, Mithra, the grate đuđu up on the mountin and all the others are fakes while your god is the true one.

Because I think I have evidence for the existence of the christian God, but not the others.

and on a noter note why do you believe that you version of the bible is the true word of god, and all the other versions interpret the word of god wrongly?

I believe the original texts are the inspired word of God. Since I have no formal knowledge of hebrew or greek, I have to trust that others do and that they translated it correctly.

I do not believe my 'interpretations' are inspired, however I do think that there are less areas of genuine disagreement then we are left to believe sometimes in the interpretation of the Bible.


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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 47 (584687)
10-03-2010 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by slevesque
10-03-2010 1:35 PM


Because I think I have evidence for the existence of the christian God, but not the others.

I'd like to briefly explore this, if I may.

I believe you when you say that you think you have evidence; or rather, if you're like most Christians you believe that there is evidence, perhaps you've been assured that there is, but since you believe on the basis of faith and not evidence, you don't really know the evidence.

Right? I suspect this because that's invariably how it works in these discussions - Christians will assert that there's an evidence-based, intellectually-compelling case for the existence of God, and then when they're asked to make that case, they beg off because they don't know the case. They just "know" it exists, but they believe on faith so they don't need it. But they're sure that somebody somewhere is making it, and maybe you should ask the next Christian, maybe he knows it. But then you ask him about it and it's the same exact deal - not me, try the Christian to the left.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 6 of 47 (584688)
10-03-2010 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by slevesque
10-03-2010 1:35 PM


Because I think I have evidence for the existence of the christian God, but not the others.

you would not mind sharing this evidence whit us?

I believe the original texts are the inspired word of God. Since I have no formal knowledge of hebrew or greek, I have to trust that others do and that they translated it correctly.

I do not believe my 'interpretations' are inspired, however I do think that there are less areas of genuine disagreement then we are left to believe sometimes in the interpretation of the Bible.

well there is the problem of Constantin doing the editing of the bible and selecting wich scripts are holy and not, some scriptures that where suposedly writen by jesusus family the lost scroll of judas..... it is difficult to say how distorted his teachings got trough the past 2 millenia.


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Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2380
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


Message 7 of 47 (584692)
10-03-2010 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by slevesque
10-03-2010 1:35 PM


The Other Guy's Proof
Hi Slevesque,

Of course you realise that it's very easy to find Muslims saying very similar things to you. Compare and contrast;

Slevesque writes:

I believe the original texts are the inspired word of God. Since I have no formal knowledge of hebrew or greek, I have to trust that others do and that they translated it correctly.

GodAllah.com writes:

Muslims have something that offers the clearest proof of all - The Holy Quran. There is no other book like it anywhere on earth. It is absolutely perfect in the Arabic language. It has no mistakes in grammar, meanings or context. The scientific evidences are well known around the entire world, even amongst non-Muslim scholars. Predictions in the Quran have come true; and its teachings are clearly for all people, all places and all times.

This is the same kind of thing we're used to hearing from Evangelical and fundamentalist Christians, only with the Quran in the place of the Bible. Of course, these claims about the Quran are not true, but then neither would they be true about the Bible.

What exactly is it about the arguments in favour of the Bible/Christianity that you feel distinguishes them from similar arguments made by those of other faiths?

Mutate and Survive


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6662
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 8 of 47 (584693)
10-03-2010 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by frako
10-03-2010 2:20 PM


Easy explanation
well there is the problem of Constantin doing the editing of the bible and selecting wich scripts are holy and not

Easy, he was inspired by God.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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jar
Member
Posts: 31468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 9 of 47 (584696)
10-03-2010 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by frako
10-03-2010 2:20 PM


well there is the problem of Constantin doing the editing of the bible and selecting wich scripts are holy and not

Actually there is no evidence I know of that says he selected any of the content, only that the books be imposing and suitable for the churches he was creating.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2200
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 10 of 47 (584706)
10-03-2010 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
10-03-2010 3:10 PM


Rings true, as any effective leader, Constantine knew how to delegate authority.

Also, as any effective leader, Constantie allowed for other religions.

It was Theodoric I who made it Illegal to not be Christian.


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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 762 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 11 of 47 (584707)
10-03-2010 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by slevesque
10-03-2010 1:35 PM


slevesque writes:

Because I think I have evidence for the existence of the christian God, but not the others.

May I ask how old you were when you decided to become a Christian, and whether the initial decision was based on evidence?


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frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 12 of 47 (584711)
10-03-2010 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
10-03-2010 3:10 PM


Actually there is no evidence I know of that says he selected any of the content, only that the books be imposing and suitable for the churches he was creating.

actualy there is tons of it, and moste what was not allowed in the bible got burned by punishment of death if one did not obay the order. sadly because of this we may never know what was thrown out and why.

things that got thrown out the gospel of judas where jesus tells judas to sacerifice him so that he can be the lamb that saves all from sin. i can imagine why this got thrown out if you read the bible rome washes its hands of the murder of jesus if jesus got sacerificed by the romans that might look a bit bad for rome.

Sozomen, Historia Ecclesia, Book 1, ch.21. This describes the results of the council. (Chapter 17 onwards describes the council). Constantine writes to all the cities ordering the destruction of the works of Arius and his followers, and the penalty of death for any who refused to destroy them. The letter is not quoted. There is also an anecdote where a Novatianist bishop is interviewed by the emperor. The bishop agrees to sign the creed but not to resume communion with the Catholics. Constantine tells him to get a ladder and ascend into heaven alone, then; but there is no mention of action against the Novatianists.

from http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html

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jar
Member
Posts: 31468
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 13 of 47 (584714)
10-03-2010 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by frako
10-03-2010 6:09 PM


On the Council of Nicea
Note that talks about an entirely different issue, the issues related to Arius and is related to the Council of Nicea. If you actually read Sozomen's writings you will find that there is no mention of creating a Canon of the Bible. The only mention of Canon revolves around practices such as marriage of certain presbyters.

The issue that revolved around Arius was related to the Trinity.

The main product of the Council of Nicea was the Nicene Creed, not the Bibles he commissioned. There is almost no information I've ever found about any directions from Constantine about the content of the Bibles, only their aesthetics.

You can read more of the available information on Sozomen here.

Edited by jar, : fix subtitle


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 14 of 47 (584718)
10-03-2010 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by frako
10-03-2010 9:43 AM


I am keen to learn more about the grate đuđu up on the mountin. S/he sounds like my kind of deity.

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 2925 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 15 of 47 (584773)
10-04-2010 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by crashfrog
10-03-2010 2:16 PM


I believe you when you say that you think you have evidence; or rather, if you're like most Christians you believe that there is evidence, perhaps you've been assured that there is, but since you believe on the basis of faith and not evidence, you don't really know the evidence.

I say 'I think I have evidence for ...' for the simple reason that it is more effective in getting a constructive discussion. Notice when someone, christian or atheist, comes in a discussion with more authoritative claims, like 'This is what the evidence says' it tends to just polarize the discussion and stiffens the dialogue. This is why I use more tentative expression.

Also, I have once ellaborated my understanding of 'faith'. I'll do it again here so that we don't misunderstand each other. The greek word for faith is ''pistis''. It is related to pisteuo, meaning believe, and pietho, which means 'to convince by argument'. By this we can see that faith is in fact related to arguments and evidence, logic and reason. In other words, i believe that when a bible author uses the word 'faith', he is referring to a confidence that is not deprived from evidence.

Now I know that many christians are guilty of not using the word in this way, they will often say things like ''I don't need evidence because I have faith'' or ''don't about such and such problem, you just need to have faith'' and so on etc. and I recognize that this lead to the overall useage of the word faith to actually be ''blind-faith''. If you reread your sentence, you will notice that this is effectively the definition you are using.

SO just to make it clear, for me, the christian faith should be evidence based. If I want to refer to a faith in something without evidence, then I will say blind faith. This is more true to the original meaning of the word in the New Testaments texts.

Right? I suspect this because that's invariably how it works in these discussions - Christians will assert that there's an evidence-based, intellectually-compelling case for the existence of God, and then when they're asked to make that case, they beg off because they don't know the case. They just "know" it exists, but they believe on faith so they don't need it. But they're sure that somebody somewhere is making it, and maybe you should ask the next Christian, maybe he knows it. But then you ask him about it and it's the same exact deal - not me, try the Christian to the left.

Vast over generalisation and over simplification, not only to mention it is borderline strawman-like, since I've been here for over a year now and I have never seen a christian act like this. They usually always try to give an answer to the objections, even though sometimes it doesn't satisfy you the least, or even though it is sometimes totally uncomprehensible.

But of course, if you already come to the table with such preconceived notions, maybe that's why you get no worthwhile discussion but instead get referred to the person to the right


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