??? Bush compares Iraq and Vietnam ???

Today, I was startled to read a CNN headline: "In Vietnam, Bush reaffirms Iraq cause". He had been trying to dodge such comparisons for so long that it was strange enough to see him doing so, but to draw a conclusion in SUPPORT of the Iraq War from Vietnam... Head explodes... Uh... Is he actually claiming that we would have won in Vietnam if forces had not been withdrawn?But lets forget that for a second. We DID withdraw our forces, we did quit, we did lose... and he is there in Vietnam speaking freely today.Doesn't that show the Vietnam war and subsequent deaths within that war were NOT required? That it was something we should not have been engaged in? We lost and the world did not go to hell. But, we LOST in Vietnam. We left it. Yeah it took a while to repair relations but the world didn't fall apart and a war had not been required to do so. The naysayers of Vietnam were proven right, and the hawks wrong!Am I crazy or is he drawing the completely opposite lesson that Vietnam has given us? Uh, then why did we need to go after Saddam Hussein? Why didn't we try that "relationships change" and "move beyond past difference" thing there? If it was possible with Vietnam, then why not Iraq in time?The article goes on to describe Howard's (australian PM) support for the Iraq conflict with verbiage reminiscent of that during Vietnam for keeping troops there. You mean like the Vietnamese? How oblivious to their surroundings and its lessons for history can these people be? Edited by holmes, : naysay on the awkshay

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holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

The obvious lesson was that we should not have invaded Iraq. Incidently, I was drawing this lesson long before Bush invaded (and thus ignored the lesson). Those who didn't think we could end up in a quagmire in Iraq never did understand what happened in Vietnam.Oops, my mistake. From Bush's perspective, the important thing that happened in Vietnam is that, with daddy's help, he managed to weasel out of service in that war. And maybe the lesson Bush learned is that he needs daddy's help to extricate from the mess he has created in Iraq. It seems that way.Its a basic Bush principle, to never admit that you were wrong.

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Just say no to McCain 2008; he abandoned principle when he caved on habeus corpus

Well, it is part of the conservative mythology that the US could have won the war in Vietnam; it was the politicians mismanaging the war and the treasonous peaceniks on the homefront that were responsible.

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

Yes, he made that comparison.I have an opinion about Bush. However, to do that opinion justice would require me to use words that are inappropriate for a public forum.

because the average "voting" American knows next to nothing about the Vietnam War or what happened there. When the ignorance level of those who support his positions is near total, he can tell them almost anything without fear of them realizing he is lying to them.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I saw that this morning too, I was like, he didn't just say that did he?
I don't think that was smart at all.
Maybe he was refering to how similar it is, and that we will never have an end to the war? And both wars are losers?

You forgot to *blink*.TTFN,WK

I would be glad to see him leave his current term of service early in order to work on someone else's election campaign. If his dad can wrangle that one again, I'd be most appreciative.

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holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

I thought that gem had faded since McNamara came out with his admission the war was a mistake. But I do know it was a popular concept.One time I was listening to Limbaugh (yes I listened to Limbaugh) and one of his callers actually stated that we won in Vietnam. It was funny to hear Limbaugh try to explain to him that in fact we did not. Wait I see it now.Directly after the dems win, Bush goes to Vietnam to draw the parallel so that when Iraq goes belly up everyone is set to view it as the dems mismanaging the war all along, rather than his fuck up for invading... and then mismanaging... Iraq in the first place.AbE: I decided to look up McNamara at Wiki and found an interesting quote there... Maybe someone should whisper that in Bush's ear, or give him McNamara's book to read.Edited by holmes, : mcnamara quote

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holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

It is the same tactic that will be used regarding taxes. Bush, like Reagan, has squandered resources and created an enormous debt. The debt will have to be paid. We, the American people are responsible for that debt. It is real, it exists.Now though, should Congress grow cajones and actually raise taxes to repay the debt incurred by Bush and Company, the Republicans will say "See, we told you!"

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That one I'm totally expecting to happen, especially in light of what happened with Reagan and Bush Sr. If the dems have no plan to deal with those claims coming up then they are severely short sighted.On thing that would totally get my respect is if a Republican ran for office stating that the fed gov't was totally mismanaged by reps, that its time to take some fiscal responsibility... and that it would likely have to include tax increases of some kind (even if not the bulk of the population).

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holmes
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

I've seen the "he did not just say that did he *blink*" and "you did not just say that did you *blink*" on quite a few occasions now as some kind of reminder by various members. Did RR, or someone else, use say this a lot?Anyway, a few weeks ago I went to a barber shop to get a haircut. The woman there was in her 40's. Like usual with a customer and a barber, we started talking. Don't remember how, but the subject of war came up. Don't remember why, but I mentioned Vietnam. She then asked me "is that somewhere in Iraq?" Ok, I thought, that perhaps she didn't know where it was. I then told her that the country is in southeast asia. She then told me that she sort of remembered hearing something about a war or something along that line.To sum it up, we had a bona fide blonde American woman who didn't have a clue the Vietnam war ever existed. Coincidently, she voted for Bush. And that, ladies and gents, is what the typical voter is like nowadays. One more reason why Democracy just doesn't work.

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See Message 94 for a typical Rrhain (*blink*) comment. It's like a signature statement.

quote:

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Directly after the dems win, Bush goes to Vietnam to draw the parallel so that when Iraq goes belly up everyone is set to view it as the dems mismanaging the war all along, rather than his fuck up for invading... and then mismanaging... Iraq in the first place.

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Heh. It wouldn't surprise me. Remember, after WWI the new German civilian government wanted to refuse the Allies' peace demands, but it was the High Command that told them that they had better accept it because the German army would not be able to prevent an Allied invasion and occupation.Later on, the fascists then claimed that the surrender was all the fault of the Weimar government, staining the honor of the German military and of the German people.Back to Vietnam; missing from the conservative mythos is that a major contribution to the peace movement were active duty military personnel.(Slightly off-topic -- speaking of the resistance within the ranks of the military, I have to say that although I am not in favor of military conscription, sometimes I have to wonder. I recall that it was also the mostly conscript Soviet army that refused orders to fire on demonstrating citizens during the 1991 coup.)

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Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This needs to be labelled the Bush Debt and it made clear that this was NOT spending by the democrates.What the democrates need to do is hold the Botch Administration accountable. That means no new spending until you have a program to pay for the Bush Debt.They can also hold the Botch Administration accountable for where all that money went: surely they have records of every dime ... unless they were squandering money willy-nilly.Follow the money eh?

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