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Author Topic:   Applying Ocam's Razor To BB vs Biblical ID Creationism and EvC
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 38 (662907)
05-19-2012 3:36 PM


Ocams Razor renders the simplest explanation as the more likely explanation of phenomena, etc.

This thread is for debate, applying Ocam's Razor to the following list of examples.


    1. According to 1LoT, the Universe is infinite in time, including it's constant unchanging amount of energy.

    2. According to Genesis one and the Biblical record, the infinite Biblical god, Jehovah who resides in the cosmos of the Universe resides in an infinite time Universe, having infinite stable amount of energy, as per 1LoT, which eminates from him, ever changing form.

    3. As is most commonly (I say, commonly) observed, physically, chaos does not spontaniously progress into order by natural means void of ID. Barns do not emerge from forests to structures, books, void of ID. Chaotic iron ore does not emerge naturally into forged tools, etc



BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


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Panda
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 2 of 38 (662908)
05-19-2012 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 3:36 PM


First law of thermodynamics:
quote:
The change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the amount of heat supplied to the system, minus the amount of work performed by the system on its surroundings. The law of conservation of energy can be stated: The energy of an isolated system is constant.

BS writes:

1. According to 1LoT, the Universe is infinite in time, including it's constant unchanging amount of energy.


The 1LoT does not mention the universe nor how long it has existed.

BS writes:

2. According to Genesis one and the Biblical record, the infinite Biblical god, Jehovah who resides in the cosmos of the Universe resides in an infinite time Universe, having infinite stable amount of energy, as per 1LoT, which eminates from him, ever changing form.


1LoT does not mention anything about infinite amounts of energy.

BS writes:

3. As is most commonly (I say, commonly) observed, physically, chaos does not spontaniously progress into order by natural means void of ID. Barns do not emerge from forests to structures, books, void of ID. Chaotic iron ore does not emerge naturally into forged tools, etc


Crystals.
You've been told this before.

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 05-19-2012 3:36 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 33125
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.5


Message 3 of 38 (662909)
05-19-2012 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 3:36 PM


Genesis 1
Have you ever read the Bible Buz?

Here is Genesis 1:

quote:
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, and fruit-trees bearing fruit after their kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after their kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years:

15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that moveth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.

23 And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the ground after its kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food:

30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for food: and it was so.

31 And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.


Can you point to where Jehovah is mentioned, where it says God is infinite, where it says God resides in the cosmos of the universe (whatever that means) resides in an infinite universe, where it says that God has an infinite stable amount of energy or that energy emits from God?

Abe:

It's also interesting that according to the Bible, the critter Buz says has infinite energy had to take the seventh day off to rest from all the work he had done.

Edited by jar, : see AbE:


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 219 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 4 of 38 (662910)
05-19-2012 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 3:36 PM


Ocams Razor renders the simplest explanation as the more likely explanation of phenomena, etc.

Sure, that's one way to put it. The classic formulation is "do not unnecessarily multiply entities."

According to 1LoT, the Universe is infinite in time, including it's constant unchanging amount of energy.

No, it's not, and a finite universe is simpler than an infinite one (less entities; infinitely less entities, in fact.) So Occam's Razor suggests that we should posit a finite universe.

According to Genesis one and the Biblical record, the infinite Biblical god, Jehovah who resides in the cosmos of the Universe resides in an infinite time Universe, having infinite stable amount of energy, as per 1LoT, which eminates from him, ever changing form.

Since "God" is, in Laplace's famous formulation, unneeded as a hypothesis, Occam's Razor suggests that we do not posit the existence of a God, Biblical or otherwise. Occam's Razor suggests atheism.

As is most commonly (I say, commonly) observed, physically, chaos does not spontaniously progress into order by natural means void of ID.

Crystals - a highly ordered form of matter - are trivially observed to spontaneously form from liquid solutions. Liquids are highly disordered. Order can be observed to arise from disorder every winter, or in the formation of rock candy as a simple syrup cools on the counter. These happen regardless of the presence of any intelligence. Occam's razor therefore suggests that order arises naturally from disorder under specific conditions.

Chaotic iron ore does not emerge naturally into forged tools, etc

Strictly speaking, the pure iron, being crystalline and therefore brittle, is highly ordered. Smiths make tools by alloying iron with impurities (carbon, vanadium, other rare earth metals) and inducing it, by cycles of heating and cooling, to become highly disordered and random in structure. The more a steel is disordered on a molecular level, the stronger it is.

Tool steel doesn't naturally reform into ore, so that should indicate to you the direction of increasing entropy. Smiths shape tools by inducing iron to adopt a more entropic configuration - to become highly disordered.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 18854
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 5 of 38 (662911)
05-19-2012 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 3:36 PM


Buzsaw writes:

As is most commonly (I say, commonly) observed, physically, chaos does not spontaniously progress into order by natural means void of ID.


Is water common enough for you? Simple hydrogen and oxygen molecules spontaneously combine to form more complex water molecules - and the spark that touches it off is pretty much void of intelligence.

Edited by ringo, : Spellinge.


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Tangle
Member
Posts: 8054
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.4


(1)
Message 6 of 38 (662912)
05-19-2012 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 3:36 PM


Ocam's razor is a philosopher's tool to make their lives a little easier - beyond trying to organise hypotheses into their most likely order it doesn't and can't solve a problem in science. Science needs evidence and the simplest solution is not a requirement for the correct answer.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 38 (662913)
05-19-2012 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 3:36 PM


Re: Pertaining To 1LoT
Panda writes:

First law of thermodynamics:

quote:
The change in the internal energy of a closed system is equal to the amount of heat supplied to the system, minus the amount of work performed by the system on its surroundings.
]

The closed infinite time and space system is one of unbounded space, space having no visible properties capable of bounding space. Thus it has no surroundings.

Again, Ocam's Razor would apply, due to the fact that no space bounds can be physically observed or falsified.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 219 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 8 of 38 (662914)
05-19-2012 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 6:31 PM


Re: Pertaining To 1LoT
The closed infinite time and space system is one of unbounded space, space having no visible properties capable of bounding space.

Space can easily be finite without being bounded. The surface of a sphere is an example of a structure finite in area, but without any borders at all. Space might very well be the same. Indeed, a cursory examination of the night sky should serve to prove that the universe must be finite in time and space; looking into an infinite universe at any point in the sky, your vision would terminate in a star no matter where you looked. Since the night sky is not a uniform sea of bright starlight, but a lightless void punctuated by the occasional star, we know that the universe is finite in time and space.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 38 (662915)
05-19-2012 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by crashfrog
05-19-2012 6:40 PM


Re: Applying Dimensions
crashfrog writes:

The surface of a sphere is an example of a structure finite in area,

There you go again, tipically applying a 2 (abe: metrical dimension model to a 3 metrical dimension system.)

Edited by Buzsaw, : as noted


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 10 of 38 (662916)
05-19-2012 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 6:31 PM


Re: Pertaining To 1LoT
BS writes:

The closed infinite time and space system is one of unbounded space, space having no visible properties capable of bounding space. Thus it has no surroundings.


Which 1LoT does not mention.

BS writes:

Again, Ocam's Razor would apply, due to the fact that no space bounds can be physically observed or falsified.


Wrong.
As with the 1LoT, you have intentionally misrepresented Occam's Razor.
You are simply wishing away any facts that contradict your view of the world.

By your logic: the universe was created by god - because it is a simpler explanation than the Big Bang Theory.
But also by your logic: this forum was created by god - because it is a simpler explanation than Percy writing it in php.
And also by your logic: god took a shit in my toilet - because it is a simpler explanation than food getting consumed and digested and then defecated by me.

I also note that you still can't bring yourself to address your stupid comments about chaotic systems never creating order.
That probably means that we will have to continue saying "Crystals!" to you.
Jeez. Even a goldfish can learn quicker than you.


Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 11 of 38 (662917)
05-19-2012 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 8:56 PM


Re: Applying Dimensions
Buz writes:

crashfrog writes:

The surface of a sphere is an example of a structure finite in area,

There you go again, tipically applying a 2D model to a 3D system.

A circle is 2D, a sphere is 3D.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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Panda
Member (Idle past 2465 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 12 of 38 (662918)
05-19-2012 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 8:56 PM


Re: Applying Dimensions
BS writes:

There you go again, tipically applying a 2D model to a 3D system.


Spheres are 2D?
There are a lot of sportsmen who would disagree with you...

Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 219 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 38 (662919)
05-19-2012 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Buzsaw
05-19-2012 8:56 PM


Re: Applying Dimensions
There you go again, tipically applying a 2D model to a 3D system.

I assumed you had the imagination and intelligence to apply the notion to a 3D space, but I see I was mistaken. The mathematics is equally applicable; a volume can be finite but unbounded just as an area can, since volume is just the integration of area over distance.

Calculus makes a lot of things possible. I eschewed math early in my college career, but recently forced myself to complete it. It was surprisingly rewarding and I continue to reap the benefits.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 05-19-2012 8:56 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 38 (662920)
05-19-2012 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Panda
05-19-2012 9:02 PM


Re: Applying Dimensions
Spheres are 2D?
There are a lot of sportsmen who would disagree with you...

I'd give Buzsaw most of the credit on this question. It is only the surface of a 2-sphere that is relevant, and that surface is 2D space. The stuff contained in the "interior" of a 2-sphere is not real.

Buzsaw fails to get full credit because he refused to note that a 2 sphere is simply an analogy for the topology of the universe. I don't believe any of us can visualize the 3 spheres and 4 spheres. At least I know I cannot.

Perhaps part of the difficulty is that it is quite easy to look at a 2-sphere and to believe it is actually like a basketball, and to believe that a 3-sphere cannot possibly exist because there is no equivalent "extra" dimension to curve into. Of course that reasoning is complete hogwash.

I wish you guys the best with this endeavor. Buzsaw actually brags about not having been indoctrinated by university professors and their higher math and physics. That attitude wouldn't seem to bode well for a thread of this nature; a thread that belongs you now where. But I'm rooting for all of you.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 38 (662921)
05-19-2012 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Panda
05-19-2012 9:01 PM


Re: Pertaining To 1LoT
Panda writes:

By your logic: the universe was created by god - because it is a simpler explanation than the Big Bang Theory.

No, Panda. Infinite systems are never created. The energy in the Universe changes forms as work is applied, Wonderfully designed complex closed systems within it are created and/or destroyed by the intelligent designer of them, the working designer being the Biblical god, Jehovah, the majestic manager of the Universe.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool." :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Panda, posted 05-19-2012 9:01 PM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
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