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Author Topic:   Have You Ever Read Ephesians?
Thugpreacha
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Posts: 12306
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 1 of 383 (686789)
12-18-2012 6:57 AM


What does it actually say?
One of jars favorite questions that he says to many of us is
Have You ever even read the Bible?
So now we are! This topic will be limited to discussions on Ephesians.

I notice that I already have two negative votes when we have not even begun to discuss the book. They must not like the author!

First some fast facts:

The main theme of Ephesians is “the Church, the Body of Christ.”

Another major theme in Ephesians is the keeping of Christ's body (that is, the Church) pure and holy.

Bible Study, Please.

Edited by Phat, : add subtitle


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 01-03-2013 11:29 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 4 by jar, posted 01-04-2013 8:33 AM Thugpreacha has responded
 Message 6 by Jazzns, posted 01-04-2013 10:49 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply
 Message 255 by jaywill, posted 02-25-2013 10:07 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
Adminnemooseus
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Posts: 3881
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Message 2 of 383 (686791)
01-03-2013 10:44 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Have You Ever Read Ephesians? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 3 of 383 (686792)
01-03-2013 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
12-18-2012 6:57 AM


Re: What does it actually say?
I notice that I already have two negative votes when we have not even begun to discuss the book.

They are probably using that as a hint that they don't think the PNT should have been approved.

Those negative votes are for the PNT. Whether they will be repeated in this now opened thread, I cannot guess.

I also notice a cheer. It seems a little untoward for your to cheer your own PNT.

The main theme of Ephesians is “the Church, the Body of Christ.”

But that terminology is surely being used as a metaphor.

Another major theme in Ephesians is the keeping of Christ's body (that is, the Church) pure and holy.

By now, it seems far too late for that.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-18-2012 6:57 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 4 of 383 (686803)
01-04-2013 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
12-18-2012 6:57 AM


Re: What does it actually say?
Who told you that:

quote:
The main theme of Ephesians is “the Church, the Body of Christ.”

Another major theme in Ephesians is the keeping of Christ's body (that is, the Church) pure and holy.



Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-18-2012 6:57 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 5 of 383 (686806)
01-04-2013 9:17 AM


Ephesians
I am happy that we will be discussing Ephesians. This is a tremendous epistle. The church in Ephesus must have been so opened to the Apostle Paul that he could boldly share with them all that was deep in his heart concerning the revelation he received from God.

It is also an epistle on the Triune God, the Trinity in His operation to produce the church. Take for example the first 14 verses.

Verses 3 - 6 conclude with a praise to the Father.
Verses 7 - 12 conclude with a praise to the Son.
Verses 13-14 conclude with a praise to the Spirit.

Let's take a look with the relevant portion in bright yellow:

quote:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, predestination us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He graced us in the Beloved."

This praise ends this section on the Father's selection and predestination for God's eternal purpose.

quote:


In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses, according to the riches of His grace, which He caused to abound to us in all wisdom and prudence, making known to us the mystery of His will according to His good pleasure, which He purposed in Himself, Unto the economy of the fullness of the times, to head up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in Him; In whom also we were designated as an inheritance, having been predestinated according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
that we would be to the praise of His glory who have first hoped in Christ.

This praise ends the section on the Son's redemption for the accomplishment of God's eternal purpose.

quote:


In whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation, in Him also believing, you were sealed with
the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance unto the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.

This praise concludes the section of the Holy Spirit's sealing and pledging for the accomplishment of God's eternal purpose.

So we have:
1.) The operation of the Father (vs. 3-6)
2.) The operation of the Son (vs. 7-12)
3.) The operation of the Holy Spirit (vs. 13-14)

The Trinity is thoroughly energized for the producing of the church and ultimately the New Jerusalem, which is the enlarged church to contain both Old Testament and New Testament believers, both Jew and Gentile as "ONE NEW MAN" (2:15) - a new divinized humanity as the capital of the new universe.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2052 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 6 of 383 (686815)
01-04-2013 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Thugpreacha
12-18-2012 6:57 AM


Authenticity?
Is it relevant to discuss if Ephesians is authentic? Should we put spiritual trust in a book that lies about who wrote it in order to gain acceptance? If there is value regardless of the author, why couldn't the ghost writer use his own name? Was it even intended for the Ephesians and does that matter?

If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-18-2012 6:57 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 7 of 383 (686819)
01-04-2013 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Jazzns
01-04-2013 10:49 AM


Re: Authenticity?
Is it relevant to discuss if Ephesians is authentic?
Should we put spiritual trust in a book that lies about who wrote it in order to gain acceptance?

Should we simply take your word for it that you know a lie has been written in the letter? On your pronouncement, we all simply nod that there is a deliberate LIE in the Greek text of this letter?

That is a lot to ask. "Yes, yes, yes. Ephesians LIES to us. Yes, yes of course!"

What are your credentials in the science of New Testament textural criticism ? What is your formal training in that field if I might ask?

If you have none, please indicate the authorities you are referencing in putting out this arguable information.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Jazzns, posted 01-04-2013 10:49 AM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2052 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(2)
Message 8 of 383 (686826)
01-04-2013 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jaywill
01-04-2013 11:31 AM


Re: Authenticity?
Should we simply take your word for it that you know a lie has been written in the letter?

No. Nor did I suggest this. The issue of the authorship of Ephesians happens to be an open question. My overall question is that if there is any value in examining Ephesians, is that value necessarily reduced by knowedge or suggestion that Ephesians not written by who claims to have written it nor for the audience it claims to be given to.

On your pronouncement, we all simply nod that there is a deliberate LIE in the Greek text of this letter? That is a lot to ask. "Yes, yes, yes. Ephesians LIES to us. Yes, yes of course!"

Get over yourself. Are you so incensed that someone might dare question the reliability of your holy wisdom that you need to put words in other peoples' mouths? Please take note of the question marks I used in the post you are replying to and re-evaluate your hysteria.

What are your credentials in the science of New Testament textural criticism ? What is your formal training in that field if I might ask?

Wow! I was unaware that formal training and credentials was a requirement to ask a question on an internet forum! Are you now going to proceed with such vigor and indignation into threads where non-geologists are currently asserting the superiority of their opinions about the facts of nature to actual practicing geologists?

If you have none, please indicate the authorities you are referencing in putting out this arguable information.

If you notice, I did not put out any information. I asked questions to potentially lead the discussion. Should the discussion actually go that way perhaps I will add my own opinion and then of course I will do my best to reference my facts where appropriate.

Here is one simple fact that I hope will not be too controversial for you. Some people don't believe Paul wrote Ephesians. My question is, does the question of Paul's authorship bear upon the relevance of Ephesians as theological work?


If we long for our planet to be important, there is something we can do about it. We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers. --Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2013 11:31 AM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2013 1:27 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(3)
Message 9 of 383 (686835)
01-04-2013 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jazzns
01-04-2013 12:42 PM


Re: Authenticity?
No. Nor did I suggest this.

No, come to think of it, you didn't.
As I re-read the post now, you didn't state that.

False accusation on my part. I apologize.


The issue of the authorship of Ephesians happens to be an open question. My overall question is that if there is any value in examining Ephesians, is that value necessarily reduced by knowedge or suggestion that Ephesians not written by who claims to have written it nor for the audience it claims to be given to.

Well, if the imposter is lying, it is interesting that throughout the high level of morality is taught.

Ie. "Therefore having put off the lie, speak truth each one with his neighbor, for we are members one of another." (4:25)

This would be very ironic. That is an imposter passing on a lie within its contents containing a teaching to put off lying.

Well, we do know that forgeries did take place. I just hate the thought of having to put Ephesians away in order to go spend my time reading plethora of non-canonical writings. I barely have time to digest the wisdom of the Christian teaching in Ephesians.

Maybe the Forum of the Accuracy and Innerancy of the Bible would be a better room to discuss authorship matters.


Get over yourself.


Are you so incensed that someone might dare question the reliability of your holy wisdom that you need to put words in other peoples' mouths? Please take note of the question marks I used in the post you are replying to and re-evaluate your hysteria.

I'll work on reading your posts more carefully. Thanks.


Wow! I was unaware that formal training and credentials was a requirement to ask a question on an internet forum!

I'll work on reading your posts more carefully.


Are you now going to proceed with such vigor and indignation into threads where non-geologists are currently asserting the superiority of their opinions about the facts of nature to actual practicing geologists?

If you notice, I did not put out any information. I asked questions to potentially lead the discussion. Should the discussion actually go that way perhaps I will add my own opinion and then of course I will do my best to reference my facts where appropriate.


Here is one simple fact that I hope will not be too controversial for you. Some people don't believe Paul wrote Ephesians. My question is, does the question of Paul's authorship bear upon the relevance of Ephesians as theological work?

I'll think about it.

The New Testament is very interesting. No where does it tell us exactly WHO wrote the epistle to the Hebrews. Instead it repeatedly says that the Holy Spirit said this or the Holy Spirit said that.

The overall effect is that we should get the point of what the Holy Spirit is saying.

At the moment I cannot think of another NT book which does that. I would say as with Hebrews so with Ephesians. Whoever wrote it had an awful lot of insight into the nature of the new covenant gospel.

I think for me to adopt a thought that "You know, Paul did [not] really write this what you are reading?" is a kind of slippery slope distraction the end of which I am not sure, will be helpful.

From Genesis the old serpent maybe put himself in the shape of a questioan mark and said "Did God say ... ?"

Of course Paul is not God. But if the biographical information inherent in the Ephesian letter is phony, that DOES put a huge damper of suspicion on its entire contents. There are some very important things written there in first person. Now if those are lies, that really taints the whole epistle.

Did I respond to your question here more accurately?

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-05-2013 7:31 AM jaywill has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12306
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


(1)
Message 10 of 383 (686896)
01-05-2013 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jaywill
01-04-2013 1:27 PM


Re: Authenticity?
My overall question is that if there is any value in examining Ephesians, is that value necessarily reduced by knowledge or suggestion that Ephesians not written by who claims to have written it nor for the audience it claims to be given to.
The inclusion of various books in the Bible was/is arguably a process certified by humans flowing in the right spirit. Yes, I know that this is a woo type of assertion, but I will defend the woo-ness of it and say that basically there are two flows...one of them fake. One flow asserts that Jesus Christ is the very definition of truth. Other attributes of this flow are love joy and peace. The author is not so important in this regard. We believe that scripture is originating from the Holy Spirit itself. The other flow, by the way...which represents most opinions not on our bandwagon, is that truth is defined by wisdom. That humanity gains deeper truth and insight through unbiased logic, reason, and reality.

But lets stick to Ephesians, shall we? (If we seek the actual author, we then need to examine motive.)

Ephesians 1:1-2 writes:

Eph 1:1-2
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The book is written by either Paul or a ghostwriter who flows with the same spirit,namely the will of God, as Paul did. There is no profit motive. There is no motive at all, apart from advancing a belief in Jesus Christ, sent from God to humanity. A living eternal presence(through the Holy Spirit) Who stepped out of eternity into time. To the saints in Ephesus, to be sure, but to saints(and sinners) of all time. The audience was foreknown. Arguably, one cannot critically examine this text without openly affirming or denying the intent of this message.

Ephesians 1:3-10 writes:

Eph 1:3-10
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment-to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

Praise and honor GOD, creator of all seen and unseen! He chose us...(or whosoever)In love. Critics may say that this book was written for another reason than to convey this basic message, and I welcome their challenge. Be careful, though. He made known to us the mystery of his will. Are you affirming or challenging this will? All things in heaven and earth will be brought together under one head. You are, however, free to support the other flow. The other spirit. at the end of the day, however, all that you will assert is that you have the right to not be compelled to be brought under one head. Keep your precious freedom to think and believe as you like, but beware that reality may not ultimately support you in the end.

Ephesians 1:11-14 writes:

Eph 1:11-14
11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory.

Was this book written to you, reader? If not, why not. That is the question I ask you. Is it because you don't believe? Is it because you refuse to allow another Spirit inside of you besides your own free will to seek truth on your terms? If so, I respect your decision. Its good to be a leader instead of a sheeple.(One of Buz pet words)

At this point, I expect a backlash. I expect that people will wish to hijack this topic and turn it into an intellectual exercise in critical analysis. I am offering my interpretation of Ephesians. Tell us yours, up to this point. Than, I shall continue.

jaywill writes:

Well, we do know that forgeries did take place. I just hate the thought of having to put Ephesians away in order to go spend my time reading plethora of non-canonical writings. I barely have time to digest the wisdom of the Christian teaching in Ephesians.

Yes I agree, jay, and as the author of this thread, I might add that my intent was for us to all read Ephesians together and discuss what it means to us, personally as a philosophy. Again, to me the author is irrelevant only in natural human terms. As a spiritual "flow" it is arguably relevant.
Jazzns writes:

My question is, does the question of Paul's authorship bear upon the relevance of Ephesians as theological work?

Again, the authorship only bears relevance in spiritual terms...not in natural terms.

Some of you will be offended at this point. My advice? If you cant stand the heat, leave the kitchen. The food will be ready shortly anyway.

Edited by Phat, : fixed link

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jaywill, posted 01-04-2013 1:27 PM jaywill has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12306
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 11 of 383 (686898)
01-05-2013 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
01-04-2013 8:33 AM


Re: What does it actually say?
jar writes:

Who told you that?

OK, God didn't tell me. I merely copied it from some introduction to the book somewhere.

Here is another explanation that I like.

Wiki writes:

The major theme of the letter is the unity and reconciliation of the whole of creation through the agency of the Church and, in particular, its foundation in Christ as part of the will of the Father.

You may conclude otherwise, and, if so, please share.

My intent for this thread is for us to read Ephesians together, one verse at a time, and comment on what the content means to us. What does the book of Ephesians mean to you? Do you examine it critically, as if from a distance? Do you cherish it personally, as if it (the writing) speaks to you, or do you believe that it spoke to someone else? Is Ephesians a relevant philosophy for today? The questions are vast and endless...but at the risk of dragging us off topic, I will focus only on what is written...in Ephesians.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : added


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jaywill
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 12 of 383 (686921)
01-05-2013 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Thugpreacha
01-05-2013 7:31 AM


Re: Authenticity?
Okay. Ephesians. What a great book to read aloud. What a great book to read prayerfully. If reading Ephesians doesn't cause you to ascend in your heart to the spiritual heights, I don't know what will.

The book is written by either Paul or a ghostwriter who flows with the same spirit,namely the will of God, as Paul did.

I am going on the belief that Paul, of course, wrote this letter.
That's going to be a flat given with me here.


There is no profit motive. There is no motive at all, apart from advancing a belief in Jesus Christ, sent from God to humanity. A living eternal presence(through the Holy Spirit) Who stepped out of eternity into time. To the saints in Ephesus, to be sure, but to saints(and sinners) of all time. The audience was foreknown. Arguably, one cannot critically examine this text without openly affirming or denying the intent of this message.

Not all the churches were equally open to Paul's ministry. In Paul's two Corinthian letters, we can see him arguing, grappling, being force to vindicate his credentials, motives, methods, etc. The audience contained some rather suspicious recipients.

With the church in Ephesus think he found an audience rather wide open to hear him. This drew him out. This enabled him to speak his heart in full.

Thank God, that we have examples of BOTH in the New Testament. That is the apostle writing to a skeptical audience as in the Corinthian letters and Paul writing to a trusting audience as in Ephesians. The balance of the Bible is always marvelous.


Ephesians 1:3-10 writes:
Eph 1:3-10 ...
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. ... 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment-to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

Praise and honor GOD, creator of all seen and unseen! He chose us...(or whosoever)In love.

The epistle to the Romans seems more to start from the standpoint of the need of sinners. Ephesians seems more to begin with God's need, God's good pleasure, and God's eternal purpose.

Because we are so "man centered" we often gage everything in view of remedies to our human problems. Ephesians emphasizes that before our problems, God foreknew, foreordained, pre-planned, "before the foundation of the world" .

Surely man has a lot of needs. They are legitimate needs. But what about the need of God? Has God absolutely no need? I think Ephesians is a book more focused upon the "good pleasure" of God.

The strong implication of the words " even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world " is that before God CREATED the universe, He had in His heart a desire for His people. Based then upon this desire already in His heart He THEN brought about the creation of the universe.

This is a death knell to the post modern concept that man is purely a accident - meaningless and without goal or aim in a universe, soon to die out in the cold blackness of space, having briefly been here for no reason. This is the dispairing thought of many young people.

But before God laid the foundation of the world, He thought to have SONS who share the divine life and nature as the uncreated eternal Divine Father.

"Even as He chose us in Him [Christ] before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ..." (vs 4,5)

A few brief observations here:

1.) Christ is a realm in which all of God's purpose takes place. Christ is the sphere in which God accomplishes His good pleasure. The meaning of the universe is intrinsically wrapped up "in Christ".

2.) The passage suggests the pre-existence of Christ before creation. Of course it echoes the prayer of Christ that His redeemed believers behold Him as He was in glory before the foundation of the world -


John 17:5 - "And now, glorify Me along with Yourself, Father, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

John 17:24 - "Father, [concerning] that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world."

3.) These ones chosen in the sphere of Christ are to be holy and without blemish.

Briefly I want to say here that two things are mentioned as holy in the Bible. Firstly God Himself ALONE is holy - "You alone are holy ..." (Rev. 15:4)

And certain things consecrated unto God for God are said to be holy - like holy angels, holy apostles and prophets, the marriage bed even is holy, etc.

Holy, I think, as it relates to God alone (Rev. 15:4) means that God is different from ALL other things in existence. He is just in a catagory of sacredness different from all other matters or things in existence. As the one who calls into being all things - [color=yellow] " God ... who gives life to the dead and calls the things not being as being" (Rom. 4:17) , God is just in a unique nature the Bible calls "holy" .

That He chose for some human beings to be holy must mean the He will dispense something of His life and nature into them making them sons in life. That is in the Divine family, as it is, partakers of what He is. As Peter said the believers in Christ are "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4)

This is beyond just created in the image of God. This is after being created in His image, partaking of His life and nature. Ie. Not merely are they to be spectators of the divine nature, or just worshippers of the divine nature, or just observers or admirers or witnesses to the divine nature. But they are to be PARTAKERS and PARTICIPANTS of the divine nature (2 Pet. 1:4) .

So God must dispense Himself into them.
God must flow His being into them or a union of the uncreated life with the created life.

Of course SONS is a life relationship. These predestinated and chosen ones are not only legally adopted. They are oranically BORN. It is a matter of life.

4.) The phrase " holy and without blemish " suggests the word picture of a gem with no foreign particle embedded in it to ruin its beauty.

Much could be discussed about this. But I want to say that fallen man received a blemish in that a foreign element of the Satanic nature entered into man. Perhaps this verse 4 is more remedial. I mean God intended that no foreign element be in man. Only His own divine life and nature was to be dispensed into man.

The sin nature was a blemish as a outside foreign defect infested into human beings through Adam's disobedience.

5.) " ... according to the good pleasure of His will "

I venture to say that as the highest Being God has the highest requirement for pleasure. This will be contraversial because on one hand many do not believe that God could NEED anything.

I think it is obvious here that God can have a good pleasure either met or left un-met. It is a good pleasure which encompasses the meaning of the universe's creation. It is a good peasure related to the purpose of humans existing. If man does not arrive at the fulfillment of God's will his own purpose for creation goes unsatisfied and God's "good pleasure" He does not gratify. His will coincides with the meaning of human creation.

"Predestinating us unto sonship" even before the creation of the world.

I say Ephesians affirms that God created all things for His purpose, for His will and plan. He created all things not only by His will power. But He created to because of His will and purpose as Revelation 4:11 indicates -

"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created." (Rev. 4:11)

I have quoted here that God calls things not being as being (Rom. 4:17). And His calling all things into being is His laying the foundation of the world, ie. creating the universe. Prior (as far as we can understand it) to this calling the universe into being and laying the world's foundation, He had a plan and a good pleasure to have SONS of Himself as the eternal Father.

How then can we not understand that MAN is exceedingly important in the universe. We are not accidents. However we came about we are the meaning of the universe. And Jesus Christ must be the central meaning of human beings for it is He as the sphere within which God duplicates more SONS. And He was beloved before the world was (John 17:5). And somehow this One radiated the splendid expression of God "before the foundation of the world " (John 17:24)

The prayer of Jesus in John 17 and the epistle of Paul in Ephesians certainly echo one another.

I'll continue below.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-05-2013 7:31 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-05-2013 4:07 PM jaywill has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12306
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 13 of 383 (686938)
01-05-2013 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jaywill
01-05-2013 11:21 AM


Re: Authenticity?
jaywill writes:

Okay. Ephesians. What a great book to read aloud. What a great book to read prayerfully. If reading Ephesians doesn't cause you to ascend in your heart to the spiritual heights, I don't know what will.

Not everyone appears to want to be transformed, which I respect only to a degree. Critical thinking leads to better understanding unless the capstone is ultimately rejected, in which case the building has a faulty foundation.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2013 11:21 AM jaywill has not yet responded

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 82 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 14 of 383 (686950)
01-05-2013 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Thugpreacha
01-05-2013 7:52 AM


Re: What does it actually say?
OK, God didn't tell me. I merely copied it from some introduction to the book somewhere.

This letter unveils a corporate entity of an aggregate group of saved people in seven aspects.

1.) They are called the Body of Christ (1:23; 4:13).
This collective then forms a Body for One living within.

2.) They are refered to as the new man (2:15), a corporate new humanity having Christ as its life and also as its Person.

3.) They are a the kingdom of God (2:19) strongly implied by the words "fellow citizens". That is citizens with rights and responsibilties.

4.) They are refered to as the household of God (also 2:19) Ie. God's folks, or God's family household.

5.) They are also the "dwelling place of God" (2:21-22) That is a living structure within which God lives locally and universally - a temple. He lives in the regenerated human spirits of the Christians -

"a dwelling place of God in spirit"

6.) They are also the Bride and the Wife of Christ (5:24-25). That is a romantic counterpart in unseperable love and devotion.

7.) Lastly they are a corporate Warrior, a corporate soldier for spiritual warfare. A warrior equiped to do battle and coordinate with Christ for the defeating of Satan, God's enemy. This is covered in (6:11-12)

So we are rather justified in saying that Ephesians is on the church in these seven aspects.

This I would say is the central track of the epistle.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-05-2013 7:52 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-06-2013 12:43 PM jaywill has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30941
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 383 (686970)
01-06-2013 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Thugpreacha
01-05-2013 7:52 AM


Re: What does it actually say?
Ephesians is an inter-office memo. It was not written to the whole world or all of Christendom but to one church. It begins "Ephesians 1 (King James Version) 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:"

The main theme of the memo is to do; to actually do works.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-05-2013 7:52 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Thugpreacha, posted 01-06-2013 12:06 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
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