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Author Topic:   Supreme Court upholds Obamacare
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 1 of 98 (666521)
06-28-2012 10:42 AM


In a 5-4 decision, with Chief Justice Roberts joining the majority, the Court held that the individual mandate is sustainable as a valid exercise of Congress's taxing power.
Short article at USA Today online. I'm sure more in depth analysis will follow.
{AbE}
Full opinion here.
Edited by subbie, : As noted

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 2 of 98 (666533)
06-28-2012 11:31 AM


I am completely stunned that it was upheld, and even more stunned that Roberts joined the majority. I will be very interested in how this plays out in political circles.

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 98 (666538)
06-28-2012 12:08 PM


Where does it Take us from Here?
I guess one question to ask is whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.
What are the repercussions? The fallout?
Where will this decision take us as a country?

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 4 of 98 (666540)
06-28-2012 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jon
06-28-2012 12:08 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Not very far but there is one encouraging feature. If the mandate is upheld as a reasonable extension of the Congress' Taxing powers then the next step to universal single payor health care support through taxation should also be reasonable.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 5 of 98 (666541)
06-28-2012 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
06-28-2012 12:17 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Not very far but there is one encouraging feature. If the mandate is upheld as a reasonable extension of the Congress' Taxing powers then the next step to universal single payor health care support through taxation should also be reasonable.
Oh, that would always have been constitutional, only self-appointed judges on right-wing blogs (i.e. idiots) could deny it. (And they will, but that's for another day.)

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 6 of 98 (666542)
06-28-2012 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jon
06-28-2012 12:08 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
I guess one question to ask is whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.
What are the repercussions? The fallout?
Where will this decision take us as a country?
In theory, this should reduce the cost of health insurance by getting healthier people (e.g. young adults) into the system. Of course, health insurance companies could take this decrease in cost as profit which is why a non-profit system would be better for the consumer.
As a country? I think everyone understood the political reality that we were never going to go to a government run universal health coverage system in one fell swoop. Hopefully this program is a success and will be a baby step towards universal coverage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 06-28-2012 12:08 PM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by dronestar, posted 06-28-2012 12:49 PM Taq has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(2)
Message 7 of 98 (666544)
06-28-2012 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Taq
06-28-2012 12:39 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
taq writes:
I think everyone understood the political reality that we were never going to go to a government run universal health coverage system in one fell swoop. Hopefully this program is a success and will be a baby step towards universal coverage.
I don't understand how you think baby steps toward a mandated corporatist/fascist health care system will eventually take us to a socialist/governmental universal coverage. They seem to be on entirely separate paths.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Taq, posted 06-28-2012 12:39 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Taq, posted 06-28-2012 1:06 PM dronestar has replied
 Message 9 by crashfrog, posted 06-28-2012 1:14 PM dronestar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 8 of 98 (666545)
06-28-2012 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by dronestar
06-28-2012 12:49 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
I don't understand how you think baby steps toward a mandated corporatist/fascist health care system will eventually take us to a socialist/governmental universal coverage. They seem to be on entirely separate paths.
The first step is the idea that we all need to be part of the system since it affects everyone. That is what ACA does, IMO. The next step is to offer a government run health insurance option that is available to everyone (not just the poor and old). Of course, I might be a bit idealistic and overly optimistic . . . but that is how I see it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by dronestar, posted 06-28-2012 12:49 PM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by dronestar, posted 06-28-2012 1:17 PM Taq has replied
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 06-28-2012 1:23 PM Taq has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(3)
Message 9 of 98 (666547)
06-28-2012 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by dronestar
06-28-2012 12:49 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
There's no such thing as a "mandated corporatist/fascist health care system". Universal coverage means putting everyone into the same risk pool. The health insurance mandate is a step towards larger pools.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(7)
Message 10 of 98 (666548)
06-28-2012 1:15 PM


Fox News Gets It Wrong ... And Then Gets It Wrong
Bill Hemmer: We have breaking news here on the Fox News Channel, the individual mandate has been ruled unconstitutional. This was a part of the law that was at the center of the oral arguments three months ago on this day when the justices hammered away at the White House and the administration's attorney, questioning the validity of the individual mandate and asking the following pointed question: if you can legislate healthcare, where can the federal government be stopped?
Banner on the screen: Supreme Court finds health care individual mandate unconstitutional
Megyn Kelly: Wait, we’re getting conflicting information. If you follow SCOTUSBlog.com ... the individual mandate is surviving as a tax. This is not confirmed by us yet, this is according to SCOTUSblog which also has the opinion. ... Everyone’s still trying to figure this out.
Hemmer: This is complicated ... we’re still trying to figure this out. Be cautious with us, we’re trying to do the best we can ...
Banner change: Supreme Court upholds parts and invalidates parts of health care law
Banner change: Supreme Court rules individual mandate will become a tax
They are now rumored to be looking for a liberal who can read the ruling to them.

Replies to this message:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(3)
Message 11 of 98 (666549)
06-28-2012 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Taq
06-28-2012 1:06 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
taq writes:
The first step is the idea that we all need to be part of the system since it affects everyone. That is what ACA does, IMO. The next step is to offer a government run health insurance option that is available to everyone (not just the poor and old). Of course, I might be a bit idealistic and overly optimistic . . . but that is how I see it.
Hmmm, . . . those steps don't seem to follow:
First: Obama introduces a mandated corporatist policy to enrich health care insurance companies (which contribute no actual health care to our system. Way to go Obama!)
Second: Then Obama will offer government run health care which would then eliminate health care insurance companies.
Taq writes:
Of course, I might be a bit idealistic and overly optimistic . . . but that is how I see it.
I might not be as overly optimistic as you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Taq, posted 06-28-2012 1:06 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 12 of 98 (666550)
06-28-2012 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Taq
06-28-2012 1:06 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
The next step is to offer a government run health insurance option that is available to everyone (not just the poor and old).
I think people get a little too hung up on the public option. Would it really matter whether everyone was covered by a government-operated pool, or by a single non-profit health insurer, or even a single for-profit health insurer that operated under heavy government supervision? It matters if people are covered by a mix of the above, but only because that means we have a bunch of people in separate pools.
The reason for pooling everybody into a single risk pool is to exploit monopsony power and drive down the cost of care by telling doctors and providers that if they don't provide at such-and-such a rate, there's nobody else to provide to. At that point I don't really see how it matters who administrates the pool; it's one of those "waste" issues, maybe, but the quality of care will be determined by what rates the risk-pool is allowed to offer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Taq, posted 06-28-2012 1:06 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Jon, posted 06-28-2012 1:44 PM crashfrog has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(2)
Message 13 of 98 (666551)
06-28-2012 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by dronestar
06-28-2012 1:17 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
First: Obama introduces a mandated corporatist policy to enrich health care insurance companies (which contribute no actual health care to our system. Way to go Obama!)
You never explained why, if this policy "enriches health care insurance companies" - who now can only put 20% of premiums towards administration and profit - those very same companies spent millions lobbying against the bill.
Is it even just slightly possible, Dronester, that you don't understand the issues, here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by dronestar, posted 06-28-2012 1:17 PM dronestar has not replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(2)
Message 14 of 98 (666552)
06-28-2012 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
06-28-2012 1:14 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Glad to hear you're back from Thailand Crash. I hope you can now get back to the "Unpaid Work For The Unemployed thread" where you said:
Crash writes:
Flying off to Thailand for a week, guys. I'll catch up on this when I get back.
Mod made a couple of detailed posts, particularly Message 176, perhaps you now have a chance to respond?

This message is a reply to:
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Jon
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 15 of 98 (666553)
06-28-2012 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
06-28-2012 1:23 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Would it really matter whether everyone was covered by a government-operated pool, or by a single non-profit health insurer, or even a single for-profit health insurer that operated under heavy government supervision?
Does the current mandate create a 'single for-profit health insurer'?
quote:
crashfrog in Message 9:
Universal coverage means putting everyone into the same risk pool.
Is this what the mandate gives us?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by crashfrog, posted 06-28-2012 1:23 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by xongsmith, posted 06-28-2012 2:12 PM Jon has replied
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 06-28-2012 3:12 PM Jon has replied

  
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