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Author Topic:   Was Sandy a good thing?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22689
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1 of 20 (677731)
11-01-2012 9:39 AM


In a recent lunchtime discussion with a colleague we wondered whether Sandy would be a long term plus or minus for the New York metropolitan area. On the one hand there's all the short term losses of damage and destruction, plus the lost earnings from closed businesses and lost work. On the other hand there's the economic stimulus of replacing all the damaged and destroyed infrastructure, and all the business and economic opportunities that come with it, plus there's the opportunity of replacing or building better than before. This Wikipedia webpage was cited at one point:
This also plays into the most major issue in this years presidential election: What is the proper role of government in a disaster? Should the federal government help New York city? Should New York state help New York city? Or should it all be New York's responsibility? And how much help should government at any level render to private individuals who have suffered significant losses?
But the central focus of our discussion was whether in the end New York will come out ahead.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6440
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 2 of 20 (677736)
11-01-2012 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
11-01-2012 9:39 AM


But the central focus of our discussion was whether in the end New York will come out ahead.
New York will do okay, though it will be rough for a little while.
I hope this helps call the nations attention to the importance of infrastructure. And maybe it will remind people that risks of this kind of storm will increase with global warming.
Still, I would not call Sandy a good thing.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 3 of 20 (677738)
11-01-2012 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
11-01-2012 9:39 AM


I doubt if NYC will come out much ahead...
but it may force some changes that have been needed but never implemented. Unfortunately, the cost of retrofitting upgrades is often prohibited not just by cost but also by convenience. It's easier and cheaper to simply replace overhead power lines than to place them underground.
What NYC will see is that some taxis will be newer and really that's about it.
But your second question "What is the proper role of government in a disaster?" and that I think is important.
"The Government" whether State, Local or Federal is simply a clearinghouse and proxy for each of us. It is in reality nothing but an agent of each individual citizen and the proper question is not whether the "Government" should do anything but rather whether I as a Texan should help those living in NYC, NJ, MD, VA, IN, ...
Would I want the rest of my fellow citizens to help if my neighborhood was struck by flood or tornado or hurricane?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 11-01-2012 9:39 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

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onifre
Member (Idle past 3062 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 4 of 20 (677746)
11-01-2012 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
11-01-2012 10:08 AM


Re: I doubt if NYC will come out much ahead...
whether I as a Texan should help those living in NYC, NJ, MD, VA, IN, ...
Do you classify yourself as a Texan first or as an American first?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 11-01-2012 10:08 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 11-01-2012 10:32 AM onifre has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 5 of 20 (677747)
11-01-2012 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by onifre
11-01-2012 10:30 AM


Re: I doubt if NYC will come out much ahead...
Right now as a Texan first.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by onifre, posted 11-01-2012 10:30 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by onifre, posted 11-01-2012 10:46 AM jar has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3062 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 6 of 20 (677749)
11-01-2012 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
11-01-2012 9:39 AM


In a recent lunchtime discussion with a colleague we wondered whether Sandy would be a long term plus or minus for the New York metropolitan area. On the one hand there's all the short term losses of damage and destruction, plus the lost earnings from closed businesses and lost work.
The lower east side and the village was hit the worst, which, as you may or may not know, is mostly small, local businesses. Now they suffer, hard. The comedy clubs, small restaurants, bake shops, coffee shops, hardware stores, etc...are all suffering financially with the MTA shut down. Today is the first day we in the outer boroughs have been able to take SOME trains into the city. Those small shops depend on the transit for their busniess. Plus not to mention the employees, like myself and other comics, musicians and local artist who make their living from performing in the small venues, parks, etc...
On the other hand there's the economic stimulus of replacing all the damaged and destroyed infrastructure, and all the business and economic opportunities that come with it, plus there's the opportunity of replacing or building better than before.
This will definitely help a portion of NY'rs, those in large union construction companies that will get the large bids. But remember, a lot of the MTA stuff, which took the most damage, is repaired by the city workers. So if anything the city itself will get a bigger budget to work with. Not much for the avergae NY'er.
But the central focus of our discussion was whether in the end New York will come out ahead.
New York ALWAYS comes out ahead. It's New York, baby!'
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

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onifre
Member (Idle past 3062 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 7 of 20 (677750)
11-01-2012 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
11-01-2012 10:32 AM


Re: I doubt if NYC will come out much ahead...
Right now as a Texan first.
Why is that? Why does 'right now' matter?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 11-01-2012 10:32 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 11-01-2012 10:53 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3062 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(2)
Message 8 of 20 (677755)
11-01-2012 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
11-01-2012 9:39 AM


I missed this point:
This also plays into the most major issue in this years presidential election: What is the proper role of government in a disaster? Should the federal government help New York city? Should New York state help New York city? Or should it all be New York's responsibility? And how much help should government at any level render to private individuals who have suffered significant losses?
Well since the gov is using a portion of every citizen's taxes to fund 2 wars and to pay for our own survalance, why not use a small portion to help whenever there is a natural disaster? We'd be using our taxes to help people rather than hurt people, which is nice for a change.
On an aside, I think Gov Christie has done a good job at being a loud voice for the people in NJ. In a good way for a change.
- Oni

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jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 9 of 20 (677756)
11-01-2012 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by onifre
11-01-2012 10:46 AM


Re: I doubt if NYC will come out much ahead...
Because right now I am living in Texas. I have also been a Virginian, a Marylander, a Arizonian, a Californian, a North and South Carolinian, a Georgian ...

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by onifre, posted 11-01-2012 10:46 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by onifre, posted 11-01-2012 10:57 AM jar has replied
 Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 11-01-2012 11:12 AM jar has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 3062 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 10 of 20 (677757)
11-01-2012 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
11-01-2012 10:53 AM


Re: I doubt if NYC will come out much ahead...
Right, but the question was do you see yourself as an American first or a (whatever state your in) first?
Do you care what happens to other Americans like during Katrina or any other natural disaster? Or do you only care about what happens in Texas and helping only those in Texas?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 11-01-2012 10:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 11-01-2012 11:04 AM onifre has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(2)
Message 11 of 20 (677762)
11-01-2012 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by onifre
11-01-2012 10:57 AM


Re: I doubt if NYC will come out much ahead...
Too funny. Have you ever thought to trying comedy?
Did you actually read the posts where I said I was a Texan or where I listed other designations I have applied to my identity in the past?
quote:
but it may force some changes that have been needed but never implemented. Unfortunately, the cost of retrofitting upgrades is often prohibited not just by cost but also by convenience. It's easier and cheaper to simply replace overhead power lines than to place them underground.
What NYC will see is that some taxis will be newer and really that's about it.
But your second question "What is the proper role of government in a disaster?" and that I think is important.
"The Government" whether State, Local or Federal is simply a clearinghouse and proxy for each of us. It is in reality nothing but an agent of each individual citizen and the proper question is not whether the "Government" should do anything but rather whether I as a Texan should help those living in NYC, NJ, MD, VA, IN, ...
Would I want the rest of my fellow citizens to help if my neighborhood was struck by flood or tornado or hurricane?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by onifre, posted 11-01-2012 10:57 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by onifre, posted 11-01-2012 11:14 AM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 20 (677765)
11-01-2012 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
11-01-2012 10:53 AM


Re: I doubt if NYC will come out much ahead...
The other half of the question is why your state allegiance comes before your national one.
In my case, my ties to North Carolina are fairly tenuous. By and large I disagree with most of my fellow NCians on social and political issues as do most people who live in the urban parts of this state. I've moved around quite a bit, including living in all of the states you have except AZ, CA, but adding a few states in New England.
Perhaps moving, plus politics, plus time in the military, plus living amidst Republicans has led to this result, but I definitely consider myself an American first.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 11-01-2012 10:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 3062 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 13 of 20 (677766)
11-01-2012 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
11-01-2012 11:04 AM


Re: I doubt if NYC will come out much ahead...
Too funny. Have you ever thought to trying comedy?
That one never gets old.
"The Government" whether State, Local or Federal is simply a clearinghouse and proxy for each of us. It is in reality nothing but an agent of each individual citizen and the proper question is not whether the "Government" should do anything but rather whether I as a Texan should help those living in NYC, NJ, MD, VA, IN, ...
Would I want the rest of my fellow citizens to help if my neighborhood was struck by flood or tornado or hurricane?
I guess the "I as a Texan" stuck out to me, and I was wondering why anyone would identify themselves with a state rather than the country first. I thought you were saying that YOU identified yourself that way. I was just wondering why? is all.
But I guess you weren't saying that? I still don't know.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by jar, posted 11-01-2012 11:04 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 11-01-2012 11:22 AM onifre has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 14 of 20 (677770)
11-01-2012 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by NoNukes
11-01-2012 11:12 AM


Re: I doubt if NYC will come out much ahead...
It is not a matter of allegiance but rather an identification of where I live at the time. As I said in Message 9, "I have also been a Virginian, a Marylander, a Arizonian, a Californian, a North and South Carolinian, a Georgian ..."
I also lived in PA and for relatively short periods in other states. The point was that government is simply an agent for all of us and even though Texas was not involved in this disaster I can use my agent, the government, to provide aid to those NOT in Texas.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by NoNukes, posted 11-01-2012 11:12 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 34136
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 15 of 20 (677771)
11-01-2012 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by onifre
11-01-2012 11:14 AM


Re: I doubt if NYC will come out much ahead...
Note the qualifier "right now" in my reply to you found in Message 9.
The reason to mention that I am a Texan was to point out that I was NOT speaking in this case as someone who needed the help, rather as someone outside.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by onifre, posted 11-01-2012 11:14 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by onifre, posted 11-01-2012 11:58 AM jar has replied

  
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