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Author Topic:   Burials
Leroy Jenkins
Member (Idle past 1830 days)
Posts: 4
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 05-02-2014


Message 1 of 94 (736307)
09-06-2014 2:27 PM


Hello everyone! I'm currently a Grade 11 student in a Canadian Catholic high school. I myself was Catholic until the end of Grade 9, but I'm not anymore, so some of my classes are... interesting... Anyway, we have to take a religion course every year. Grades 9 and 10 are JESUSLOVESYOU courses, and Grade 11 is World Religions, aka This-is-why-our-religion-is-best course. So my teacher was asking us a bunch of questions about our world view, and as expected, the class went ballistic on myself and the few other atheists. When we got to the question about what happens when we die, however, I seem to have said something that people weren't really expecting (I don't know why they weren't expecting it).

I said the usual atheist response (you rot in the ground) plus I explained how our remains will eventually contribute to new life and new stars, but the thing that set everyone off was when I said that plonking our corpses in graves is wasting space. I went on to state that the massive amount of land used for cemeteries could be used for something useful like hospitals, school, (public) housing, etc.

I don't really understand the point of proper graves. They allegedly help to remember the deceased, but I can't comprehend how looking at a rock in the ground helps to remember someone. I can think about my dead family members just fine without standing in the middle of a glorified park (another more useful use for cemeteries). I advocate cremation for everyone, and pretty much dumping their remains in some sort of mass grave. If you wanted, obviously you could keep the ashes. And just to be clear, I don't want to force this on anyone, I'm just trying to convince people of the general silliness of graves.

What do you people think? Do you want to keep cemeteries, do away with them, give people badass Viking funerals? I'd like to hear what you have to say, because you may convince me that I'm wrong, and if you don't, I'll know some new arguments to use against my classmates.

Thanks!


"As with the Christian religion, the worst advertisement for Socialism is its adherents."
-George Orwell

"In my opinion, nothing has contributed so much to the corruption of the original idea of socialism as the belief that Russia is a socialist country and that every act of its rulers must be excused, if not imitated."
-Also George Orwell

"You don't need a formal conspiracy; when interests converge, these people went to the same universities, [...] they're on the same boards of directors, they're in the same country clubs, they have like interests. They don't need to call a meeting, they know what's good for them, and they're getting it."
-George Carlin


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Tangle, posted 09-06-2014 2:33 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded
 Message 3 by NoNukes, posted 09-06-2014 2:44 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 09-06-2014 3:53 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded
 Message 6 by Coyote, posted 09-06-2014 4:45 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded
 Message 10 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-06-2014 7:30 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded
 Message 14 by Coragyps, posted 09-06-2014 10:06 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded
 Message 15 by Jon, posted 09-06-2014 11:31 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded
 Message 17 by dwise1, posted 09-07-2014 6:17 AM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded
 Message 19 by RAZD, posted 09-07-2014 8:05 AM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded
 Message 20 by Theodoric, posted 09-07-2014 1:45 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded
 Message 31 by Stile, posted 09-08-2014 7:44 AM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded
 Message 48 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2014 11:16 AM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7207
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 2 of 94 (736309)
09-06-2014 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins
09-06-2014 2:27 PM


Personally, I've left instructions in my will to be cremated and have my ashes put into the head of a rocket (firework) and fired off over the sea.

Cemetaries are indeed silly.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins, posted 09-06-2014 2:27 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 3 of 94 (736312)
09-06-2014 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins
09-06-2014 2:27 PM


I can think about my dead family members just fine without standing in the middle of a glorified park (another more useful use for cemeteries).

Interesting. I have never visited my own father's grave, which is in another city from the one in which I live. On the other hand, my wife and kids visit the grave of my wife's father on occasion.

I cannot come up with any reason to find their visits silly. It seems a natural thing for them to share their feelings near grandpa's resting place. If in fact such a thing is silly, one might also consider things like birthdays and anniversary's equally silly as each is only one day in what we hope is a long life or long relationship.

I'm perfectly satisfied with being cremated, but if I found the idea horrified the people I left behind, I'd leave the choice in their hands.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins, posted 09-06-2014 2:27 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 09-06-2014 3:31 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 7207
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 4 of 94 (736313)
09-06-2014 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by NoNukes
09-06-2014 2:44 PM


NoNukes writes:

If in fact such a thing is silly,

I said cemetries are silly, I didn't say places of rememberance were. My dad's ashes are scattered on a hill that I regularly walk.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by NoNukes, posted 09-06-2014 2:44 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by NoNukes, posted 09-06-2014 7:10 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 17671
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 5 of 94 (736314)
09-06-2014 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins
09-06-2014 2:27 PM


Some Anecdotes
Leroy Jenkins writes:

I don't really understand the point of proper graves. They allegedly help to remember the deceased, but I can't comprehend how looking at a rock in the ground helps to remember someone.


Two of my grandparents and all four of my great-grandparents are buried in the same cemetery. I've been there for two of the funerals but I've never seen the other four graves.

My parents are buried in another cemetery a few miles from my house. I've never been there except for their funerals. My mother was buried wearing her wedding ring, which was never of much intrinsic value.

An elderly couple I knew had a little dog; they had it cremated when it died and when the husband died, the urn was buried with him according to his wishes - I have no idea where. I last saw him shortly before he died and he seemed glad to see me - which means more to me than any thought that he's still out there somewhere being spooky.

I've heard that in China they bury you and then farm right over you. That's what I'd like:

quote:
We are stardust
We are golden
And we've got to get ourselves
Back to the garden

-- Joni Mitchell



This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins, posted 09-06-2014 2:27 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 447 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 6 of 94 (736317)
09-06-2014 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins
09-06-2014 2:27 PM


On burials
Cremation is increasingly popular now, but just think of the impact on the archaeologists of the future!

What are those poor folks going to do????


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins, posted 09-06-2014 2:27 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Omnivorous, posted 09-06-2014 7:22 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 94 (736321)
09-06-2014 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
09-06-2014 3:31 PM


I said cemetries are silly, I didn't say places of rememberance were. My dad's ashes are scattered on a hill that I regularly walk.

What makes a grave silly and an ash scattering place non-silly? Is it the waste of space associated with the former?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tangle, posted 09-06-2014 3:31 PM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 8 of 94 (736323)
09-06-2014 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Coyote
09-06-2014 4:45 PM


Re: On burials
Coyote writes:

Cremation is increasingly popular now, but just think of the impact on the archaeologists of the future!

What are those poor folks going to do????

Landfills and videos.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Coyote, posted 09-06-2014 4:45 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 09-06-2014 7:29 PM Omnivorous has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 9 of 94 (736324)
09-06-2014 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Omnivorous
09-06-2014 7:22 PM


Re: On burials
Beta and floppies?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Omnivorous, posted 09-06-2014 7:22 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Omnivorous, posted 09-06-2014 7:34 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 10 of 94 (736325)
09-06-2014 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins
09-06-2014 2:27 PM


I don't really understand the point of proper graves. They allegedly help to remember the deceased, but I can't comprehend how looking at a rock in the ground helps to remember someone.

Well, it has their name on. Saving you the embarrassment of saying "I really miss ... whatshisname."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins, posted 09-06-2014 2:27 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3811
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 11 of 94 (736326)
09-06-2014 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
09-06-2014 7:29 PM


Re: On burials
Why not? And some may specialize in selfies and sexting.

Or printed text from the Archaic Age.


"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 09-06-2014 7:29 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 8.3


(1)
Message 12 of 94 (736328)
09-06-2014 8:34 PM


I want a vast monument built out of the piled-up skulls of my enemies.

What? It's not like they were using them for anything.


  
jar
Member
Posts: 31774
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 13 of 94 (736329)
09-06-2014 8:55 PM


Different cultures have different customs and laws. For example the HOA rules here preclude my body being placed on a platform in front of my house until all that is left are the bones which should be gathered and placed on display next to the Nespresso machine at the community center.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5414
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 6.0


(3)
Message 14 of 94 (736331)
09-06-2014 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins
09-06-2014 2:27 PM


My plan in my youth was to be processed into fertilizer for someone's marijuana patch.

I find cemeteries very interesting for the history they contain, like the fifteen or so toddlers and infants buried, all in 1892, in Duncan, Oklahoma. Measles, apparently. But yes, cemeteries are a pretty big waste of space in areas that have too little space. Cremation with scattered ashes or with closely-spaced urns would be way more practical, and I, at least, would be less icked out by ancestors' ashes than by formerly formaldehyde-soaked bodies.

The whole subject of remembering/memorializing the dead is pretty odd, too - humans are the only critter that seems to do it beyond a few days.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins, posted 09-06-2014 2:27 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 94 (736332)
09-06-2014 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins
09-06-2014 2:27 PM


Welcome.

I give thought occasionally to my future remains. I am in my 20s, yet my innevitable death frightens me. Occasionally I come to terms with the idea of being dead, but it is the act of dying that I cannot accept: to know that I will know; one moment I will be toward the end and just waiting; the next moment I will be at the end and feel the exactness of demise. What's more, I cannot be sure that I will be dead when I am dead. Maybe my brain will keep working for a while; maybe I will be "alive" when I am killed by the examiners. And that scares me most: to be dead but still alive. To sense my loved ones gathering round me and being helpless. To wake underground! It is paralysis. I fear paralysis.

That said, I want my body not to be embalmed; I want a above-ground tomb that locks from the inside; I want non-perishable food left with me and an active phoneline running to the site.

Given who I am, though, I will probably get drained, preserved, and boxed. But it doesn't hurt to ask...

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Leroy Jenkins, posted 09-06-2014 2:27 PM Leroy Jenkins has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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