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Author Topic:   Homeless in Paradise
1.61803
Member (Idle past 935 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 1 of 25 (736439)
09-10-2014 11:41 AM


Page Unavailable - ABC News
Hawaii is seriously considering moving it's homeless population to
a less visable location.
Is this a viable option? Does this move then serve as a model for other municipalities?
Is it moral? In the terms of simply hiding the problem rather than helping?
I feel the relocation of the poor and homeless to reflect badly on any state, but sadly I can understand why the state would want to do it. I am interested in what other forumites think. Discuss? Critiques? Any agreement with this policy? And most important any possible solutions?
Coffee house.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2014 8:01 PM 1.61803 has replied
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 Message 6 by Omnivorous, posted 09-11-2014 1:30 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Adminnemooseus
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Posts: 3963
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Message 2 of 25 (736498)
09-10-2014 7:02 PM


Thread Moved from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 3 of 25 (736500)
09-10-2014 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by 1.61803
09-10-2014 11:41 AM


mini homes
Attacking the symptom of a problem does not make the problem go away.
Better would be to set up housing for the people, which has the added benefit that they now have an address to use when applying for jobs, a small detail that increases employability tremendously.
Small communities with mini-homes (many designs on the internet) would provide some autonomy and create a stepping stone to reconnecting with society.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : subt

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by 1.61803, posted 09-10-2014 11:41 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by 1.61803, posted 09-11-2014 3:14 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 14 by NoNukes, posted 09-12-2014 5:35 PM RAZD has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 25 (736501)
09-10-2014 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by 1.61803
09-10-2014 11:41 AM


Business Taxes for Shelters
While visiting a beach in L.A., over ten years ago, I was shocked by the number of homeless people in the area. It was not the simple fact that they were homeless that made it a rough experience, but mostly how they behaved. Heckling, intoxicated, literally overrunning public restrooms. Not all homeless people were behaving this way, of course, but enough to make it a problem.
In fact, with those folk present it was impossible to enjoy the area as a tourist destination. It is reason enough not to return to the area in the future.
This translates into lost income for businesses that rely on tourism (and the people who work for them!). And there are whole communities that are supported almost entirely on tourism spending. These communities will suffer if our only goal is to care for the homeless and, hopefully, get them back into society with stable work and residences. As we know, such grandiose ideas for world harmony and brotherly love ultimately get nowhere; folks like us talk about the right thing to do and might even try to fight for it on some sociopolitical level or another. But these solutions, if they come at all, do not come fast enough for the businesses (and people!) who will lose out so long as the homeless population continues to be a deterrent for tourism.
We have to consider a solution that looks to benefit both sides, because both sides ultimately have valid and sincere reasons for their view points: the homeless need to sleep somewhere; and tourism economies need to be able to keep tourists returning.
I think what Hawaii is trying, according to the article, is a 'best for now' approach. It's a start!
Is it moral? In the terms of simply hiding the problem rather than helping?
It sounds like from the article they are trying to do both: hide and help.
feel the relocation of the poor and homeless to reflect badly on any state, but sadly I can understand why the state would want to do it. I am interested in what other forumites think. Discuss? Critiques? Any agreement with this policy? And most important any possible solutions?
A tax on tourism industries to help pay for housing and employment services for the homeless might be a great start.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by 1.61803, posted 09-10-2014 11:41 AM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 09-11-2014 1:26 PM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 20481
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 5 of 25 (736593)
09-11-2014 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
09-10-2014 9:26 PM


Re: Business Taxes for Shelters
Jon writes:
In fact, with those folk present it was impossible to enjoy the area as a tourist destination. It is reason enough not to return to the area in the future.
Yes, heaven forbid that we should actualy see problems. Let's just go from our gated communities in our tinted-window limos to heavily-guarded airports and fly to other heavily-guarded airports and thence by armoured buses to resorts surrounded by razor wire to keep the locals out. Travel broadens but there's a limit to the breadth we should be subjected to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 09-10-2014 9:26 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 09-11-2014 6:29 PM ringo has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 102 days)
Posts: 3851
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


(4)
Message 6 of 25 (736596)
09-11-2014 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by 1.61803
09-10-2014 11:41 AM


Where to start?
Well, as RAZD has suggested, with homes.
Many homeless people will not use shelters for pretty good reasons: they are often "dormitory" style places where the vulnerable homeless are at risk from disturbed and/or predatory residents.
As my schizophrenic brother said when calling from his first stay in a psych ward, "Get me outta here these people are crazy!"
Estimates of the number of mentally ill homeless people usually come in somewhere around one third of the nearly one millon homeless. Many of them were turned out from public institutions under the rubric of rights and liberties, but more accurately under the pressure of state and federal budgets. I suspect the numbers of both homeless and the proportion of mentally ill among them are considerably higher.
I should also note that there are many families among the homeless, some of them with children who are honor roll students.
As Anatole France said, ""In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets, and steal loaves of bread." Similarly, the law preserves the rights to liberty for the sane and psychotic alike; as one wag commented elsewhere on the web, that's like arguing that Alzheimer's patients have an inherent liberty right to wander the landscape aimlessly.
U.S. cities and towns are just chockablock full of empty houses now; they would make great residences for the homeless, but the federal government and bad mortgage companies are providing funds to raze entire blocks in cities like Detroit. Treatment of the mentally ill would reduce the social stigma of both homelessness and mental illness.
I don't think what Hawaii is doing is so bad, as long as a heaping helping of help goes along with the relocation. Lawmen used to give "vagrants" a bus ticket to the next town, but I suppose that has limited applicability in Hawaii .
We will greatly ameliorate the problem of homelessness when enough of us want to do so. As I've noted in another context (GMOs), we already have the power to end starvation; ditto, homelessness.
We just lack the will.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by 1.61803, posted 09-10-2014 11:41 AM 1.61803 has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 935 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 7 of 25 (736625)
09-11-2014 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
09-10-2014 8:01 PM


Re: mini homes
Hello all, RAZD, is right of course the problem exist and wont go away even it you hide it. My daughter at age 4 covered a ink stain on the carpet hoping we would not notice.
I also see Jon's view. It is a problem that affects the revenues of the city. But shipping them off to a separate area out of sight out of mind is a temp fix. If we house them they will come.
Ringo, I hear ya we cant keep the guys building our gated communities out forever.
Omnivous is right in that we lack the will. Most problems can not be fixed by throwing money at it.
But spending such a large chunk of our GDP on the Military Industrial complex seems like we could find some better solutions to the homeless issue. I dont say "problem" because believe it or not some homeless do not see it as a problem. We are the ones with a problem.
RAZD,
I think the teach a man to fish rather than just giving him a fish is maybe a better solution. Can we have a Peace Corp in the US?
Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2014 8:01 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Jon, posted 09-11-2014 7:56 PM 1.61803 has not replied
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 09-11-2014 8:28 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 25 (736641)
09-11-2014 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by ringo
09-11-2014 1:26 PM


Re: Business Taxes for Shelters
Think what you want. Fact is, I am not going back there.
And that's lost money for them.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by ringo, posted 09-11-2014 1:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 09-12-2014 12:00 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 25 (736650)
09-11-2014 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by 1.61803
09-11-2014 3:14 PM


Re: mini homes
Can we have a Peace Corp in the US?
AmeriCorps
quote:
Wikipedia on AmeriCorps:
The program is often compared to the Peace Corps as its domestic counterpart.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by 1.61803, posted 09-11-2014 3:14 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 10 of 25 (736654)
09-11-2014 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by 1.61803
09-11-2014 3:14 PM


Re: mini homes
RAZD,
I think the teach a man to fish rather than just giving him a fish is maybe a better solution. Can we have a Peace Corp in the US?
We do (or did), but it is not pushed.
How about helping the homeless to build the mini-home, thus engendering pride of ownership, which can translate into maintenance and upkeep. This would be like a barn-raising event that helped bond agricultural towns together (and the Amish still do it).
There is also Jimmy Carter and the (religious orientated) Habitat for Humanity project.
This is also something that I think the National Guard could be involved in -- as a way of providing shelter after earthquakes or hurricanes -- as one of their additional duties that I see as an opportunity for the guard to protect and defend us from natural as well as man-made disasters.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by 1.61803, posted 09-11-2014 3:14 PM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 20481
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 11 of 25 (736706)
09-12-2014 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jon
09-11-2014 6:29 PM


Re: Business Taxes for Shelters
Jon writes:
Think what you want.
Thanks. I will.
Jon writes:
Fact is, I am not going back there.
I'd be more impressed if you didn't like the way they treat homeless people instead of just not wanting to see homeless people.
Jon writes:
And that's lost money for them.
Yes, that's my point. They could spend money to make money - either by hiding their homeless people or by helping them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 09-11-2014 6:29 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Jon, posted 09-12-2014 5:12 PM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7836
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 12 of 25 (736711)
09-12-2014 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by RAZD
09-11-2014 8:28 PM


Re: mini homes
When I quit working 2004 I volunteered on a habitat project. I also looked at volunteering at one of their ReStore stores. In both circumstances I found the christian proselytizing and evangelizing overbearing and offensive.
They state this:
quote:
Habitat has an open-door policy: All who desire to be a part of this work are welcome, regardless of religious preference or background. We have a policy of building with people in need regardless of race or religion. We welcome volunteers and supporters from all backgrounds.
About Habitat for Humanity | Habitat for Humanity
But in reality a lot of people associated with them look on it as an opportunity to convert heathens. I was very quiet about my religious preferences but was constantly pressured to express them.
When I talked to the people at the ReStore I was told clearly that they were Christian and expected volunteers to be church going christians. They seem to be an expression of middle class, liberal guilt in action. Instead of truly addressing social issues they casn assuage their conscience by doing this.
Just my take. I am sure others had other experiences. As an atheist I tend to have a different viewpoint than religious people.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by RAZD, posted 09-11-2014 8:28 PM RAZD has replied

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 25 (736746)
09-12-2014 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
09-12-2014 12:00 PM


Re: Business Taxes for Shelters
I'd be more impressed if you didn't like the way they treat homeless people instead of just not wanting to see homeless people.
As I discussed in my earlier post, it wasn't seeing the homeless people that was bothersome. It was the fact of how many of them behaved: unpredictable, ill-tempered, rude, etc. It is hard to enjoy anything with such people aroundwhether they're homeless or not. And this is something the article specifically addresses; it isn't just that people don't like looking at the homeless (they probably don't) but that the homeless are harassing tourists, and most of them are quite frightening.
This is a problem for tourism in any area where homeless people regularly come into contact with tourists, and damaging the tourism industry translates into damaged livelihoods for the people who rely on that industry to feed their families and clothe their children.
So there are two problems and they are connected. And we can address both at the same time if we come up with good compromises.
They could spend money to make money - either by hiding their homeless people or by helping them.
They could.
Or they could do something totally crazy like Hawaii and try to hide their homeless people by housing them.
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ringo, posted 09-12-2014 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 09-13-2014 11:57 AM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 14 of 25 (736753)
09-12-2014 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
09-10-2014 8:01 PM


Re: mini homes
Attacking the symptom of a problem does not make the problem go away.
Better would be to set up housing for the people,
That reminds me of an old joke about Nancy Reagan's plan to help the homeless. It was called "Just get a house".
I spent time working with the homeless in Northern Virginia, which is one of the more wealth laden regions in the DC area. For the majority of the people I encountered who were living in the woods, homelessness was just another symptom. Many of the guys and girls had problems that well explained their situation. Mental problems, drug and alcohol problems, long term unemployment problems, criminal records, registered as sex offenders etc., uncomfortable with following any rules or order... During the 7 years I lived there the various groups we worked with managed to get a frustratingly small handful of them off the streets for any extended period of time.
I imagine that the homeless people in Hawaii have similar problems.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2014 8:01 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by RAZD, posted 09-12-2014 6:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 25 (736761)
09-12-2014 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Theodoric
09-12-2014 12:29 PM


Re: mini homes
... I found the christian proselytizing and evangelizing overbearing and offensive.
Yep, that's my experience too, and it is unfortunate - they would probably get a lot more donations of time and money if they weren't so self-important about it.
That's why I advocate the National Guard being tasked with providing services following an emergency (natural or man-made) that would include restoring homes (think Sandy relief in New Jersey is STILL going on, Katrina relief in Louisiana is STILL going on ... ) in addition to providing immediate emergency services (policing, food supply, temporary shelter). We CAN do better. Small homes would be better than FEMA trailers.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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