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Author | Topic: Religious Belief and IQ | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22824 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4
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LinkedIn email'd a link to this today:
There's no text and no references, just a number of charts indicating an inverse correlation between religious belief and IQ, e.g.:
Is this believable? Many religious people are obviously very intelligent (Stephen Meyer, Michael Behe, etc.). On the other hand many of the creationists who come here know very little, but it's a self-selected group. There's an air of the oblivious in these people who enter eagerly into discussions on subjects about which they know little. They seem unaware and even unable to detect or figure out when they don't know something. Maybe that's the mark of an intelligent person - they know when they don't know. --Percy
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6046 Joined: Member Rating: 5.6 |
Many religious people are obviously very intelligent (Stephen Meyer, Michael Behe, etc.). On the other hand many of the creationists who come here know very little, but it's a self-selected group. There's an air of the oblivious in these people who enter eagerly into discussions on subjects about which they know little. They seem unaware and even unable to detect or figure out when they don't know something
I would agree that the clueless creationists we normally have to deal with on-line and even in real life are a self-selected and biased sampling of the entire creationist population. An intelligent creationist would realize when his arguments are weak and would avoid having to try to defend them against a knowledgeable opponent in an open discussion (of which a creationist-run "debate" would not be an example). An unintelligent or merely extremely ignorant creationist would not know any better. In the preface of his book, The Age of the Earth, G. Brent Dalrymple explains his reasons for writing the book. His first encounter with creationists was in 1975 when Duane Gish and Henry Morris visited Menlo Park to present their case for creationism in an evening seminar to several hundred scientists from the U.S. Geological Survey. The response that Gish and Morris received consisted of several attempts to correct their misunderstandings, especially their bizarre misinterpretation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Gish and Morris were intelligent men and they were indeed able to learn from their mistakes. After that experience they learned to not talk to scientists. There's a local creationist activist, Bill Morgan, who is also obviously intelligent; eg, he is a licensed practical engineer. Another mark of his intelligence is that he is very careful in picking his opponents and other victims. When his opponent/victim understands the subject matter and knows what he is talking about, Bill is so sweet and friendly that butter couldn't melt in his mouth ... as he avoids entering into any discussion about creationism and tries to disengage as quickly as possible. But if his victim is not knowledgeable, then Bill becomes aggressive and bullying and viciously mocking. Being intelligent, Bill knows that he must pick his audiences and victims carefully; he would never dare show up here nor in any other open forum. Rather, it is the clueless creationists who navely believe the claims that they are spreading while at the same time don't understand any of it, which becomes glaringly obvious when we try to discuss their claims with them. In fact, I've noticed for decades that the surest way to make a creationist very angry is to take their claims seriously and try to discuss them with them. It took me a long time to figure out that that was because they simply did not know what they were talking about and didn't dare admit it.
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jar Member Posts: 34140 From: Texas!! Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
If you Google the person and company you find some most interesting material related to the believability of that individual.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 524 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined:
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How do they distinguish between intelligence and education when doing IQ tests?
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Tangle Member Posts: 9561 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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From:
Richard Lynn, John Harvey, Helmuth Nyborg, Average intelligence predicts atheism rates across 137 nations, Intelligence, Volume 37, Issue 1, January—February 2009, Pages 11-15, ISSN 0160-2896, Redirecting.
2.1. (1) Negative correlations between intelligence and religious belief A number of studies find negative correlations between intelligence and religious belief. A review of these carried out by Bell (2002) found 43 studies, of which all but four found a negative correlation. To these can be added a study in the Netherlands of a nationally representative sample (total N = 1538) that reported that agnostics scored 4 IQs higher than believers ( Verhage, 1964). In a more recent study Kanazawa (in press) has analysed the data of the American National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health, a national sample initially tested for intelligence with the PPVT (Peabody Picture Vocabulary Test) as adolescents and interviewed as young adults in 2001—2 (N = 14,277). At this interview they were asked: To what extent are you a religious person? The responses were coded not religious at all, slightly religious, moderately religious, and very religious. The results showed that the not religious at all group had the highest IQ (103.09), followed in descending order by the other three groups (IQs = 99.34, 98.28, 97.14). The relationship between IQ and religious belief is highly significant (F (3, 14273) = 78.0381, p < .00001). 2.2. (2) Lower percentages holding religious beliefs among intelligence elites compared with the general populationIn corroboration of these studies finding negative correlations between intelligence and religious belief is evidence comparing the percentages of religious believers among intelligence elites compared with the general population. This was shown as early as 1921 in a survey of the religious beliefs of eminent American scientists and scholars that reported that 39% stated that they believed in God (with a range of 48% among historians to 24% among psychologists) (Leuba, 1921). It was reported by Roe (1965) that among a group of 64 eminent scientists, 61 were indifferent to religion, leaving approximately 4.8% as religious believers. These are much lower than the percentage religious believers in the population among whom 95.5% in the United States stated that they believed in God in a 1948 Gallup Poll (Argyle, 1958). In the 1990s a study of members of the American National Academy of Sciences reported that 7% believed in the existence of God, as compared with approximately 90% found in a poll of the general population (Larsen & Witham, 1998). In Britain, it has been reported that 3.3% of Fellows of the Royal Society believed in the existence of God, while 78.8% did not believe (the remainder being undecided) (Dawkins, 2006). At the same time a poll showed that 68.5% of the general population believed in the existence of God. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1580 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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There's no text and no references, just a number of charts indicating an inverse correlation between religious belief and IQ, e.g.: I did a quick search and got: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/religion_vs_iq.html
quote: Page Not Found - The Skeptic Tank
quote: Looks to me like there may be a number of factors that muddy the correlations, like income and education, but that there might be a small tendency. One of the charts in your link for instance:
Would have more to do with education than IQ. Wikipedia also has an article on it quote: Now my impression is that the first graph is self selecting rather than a measure of intelligence -- the more religious a person is the less they think higher education is valuable. The second graph would appear to show a threshold (~90) below which there are strong religious beliefs and above which the results are all over the map. Of course one of the problems with IQ tests is that they correlate with education -- you can change your IQ with education, and not being able to fully understand the questions impacts you negatively. IQ tests also show cultural biases.
Is this believable? Many religious people are obviously very intelligent (Stephen Meyer, Michael Behe, etc.). On the other hand many of the creationists who come here know very little, but it's a self-selected group. There's an air of the oblivious in these people who enter eagerly into discussions on subjects about which they know little. They seem unaware and even unable to detect or figure out when they don't know something. Maybe that's the mark of an intelligent person - they know when they don't know. The more you know the more you know how much you don't know? This tendency is also born out by studies on the confidence of students in passing exams -- the more confident ones scored lower than the less confident ones, IIRC. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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frako Member (Idle past 481 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
My guess is its because they don't use their brains because they don't have to, they know all the answers god did it and that it, or they never had access to proper education, a big part of intelligence is logical thinking you train that by doing maths. So their brains don't develop fully.
Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that. |
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nwr Member Posts: 6476 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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Is this believable?
Yes, it is believable. But that's not the same as saying that it's true. It might even be that in a theocracy, it is the other way around. In a theocracy, the intelligent are better able to see that they can do better by becoming more religious. So I'm suggesting that it may depend on social structure.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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Big_Al35 Member (Idle past 975 days) Posts: 389 Joined: |
It is interesting to note that so much emphasis here is placed on intelligence. Perhaps you have never heard the following famous quote;
"Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence.Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent"
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Tangle Member Posts: 9561 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Big Al
It is interesting to note that so much emphasis here is placed on intelligence. Perhaps you have never heard the following famous quote; "Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" Well whoever wrote that knew nothing about particle physics - or even software development.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Pressie Member (Idle past 151 days) Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
To me (in my limited experience in geology of more than 20 years), it basically comes down to:
The higher the education in geology, the lower the beliefs in Gods. The longer a person works in geology (whether in geological research organisations or for mining companies, etc.); the lower the percentage of people believing in the Supernatural. Regardless of intelligence. Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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Big_Al35 Member (Idle past 975 days) Posts: 389 Joined: |
Tangle writes: Well whoever wrote that knew nothing about particle physics - or even software development. Not sure what you mean but let's take each one of those in turn; 1) Particle physics eg that which is studied at LHC requires work that is done on the back of hundreds of other peoples efforts.2) Software Development is largely an intellectual pursuit...but is it success? They aren't famous on the whole, they don't get much recognition for their work and often they get paid badly. I should know as I used to be a badly paid software professional.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9561 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
BigAl writes:
Not sure what you mean but let's take each one of those in turn; 1) Particle physics eg that which is studied at LHC requires work that is done on the back of hundreds of other peoples efforts. I can tell you with 100% certainty that no matter how long I persisted in trying to build the LHC or even understand the physics that it's testing, I would never, ever, achieve either.
2) Software Development is largely an intellectual pursuit...but is it success? They aren't famous on the whole, they don't get much recognition for their work and often they get paid badly. Software development is one of those tasks you can throw 50 people at and never get it done or one really talented guy and have it next week. Which I'm sure you know.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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ringo Member (Idle past 587 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Big_al35 writes:
Good Will Hunting. The guy who sweeps the floor is smarter than the guy who writes the paper on large hadrons.
Particle physics eg that which is studied at LHC requires work that is done on the back of hundreds of other peoples efforts.
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Percy Member Posts: 22824 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Big_Al35 writes: 2) Software Development is largely an intellectual pursuit...but is it success? They aren't famous on the whole, they don't get much recognition for their work and often they get paid badly. I want to correct any impression that software engineers are underpaid. This is from a job listing for a senior Java developer, and it's fairly typical:
My son just accepted an entry level software engineering position right out of school and he's making much, much less, but he doesn't know anything yet, so maybe that's the kind of underpaid situation you had in mind. --Percy
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