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Author Topic:   Immigration -- what's the big deal?
RAZD
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 43 (749859)
02-09-2015 4:02 PM


This doesn't have to be complicated, there is a lot of demand for farm workers and other low wage positions, there is room, there is opportunity ....

Back at the start of this country there was virtually unregulated immigration, and I don't see any moral justification for more regulation or barriers to immigration. If you could get here that was enough.

quote:
Statue of Liberty

... "Give me your tired, your poor/Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free", is uniquely identified with the Statue of Liberty and is inscribed on a plaque in the museum in its base.[83] ...


We should also believe that the ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence applies to all people.

There should be one single basic requirement: that you want to become a US citizen (and anyone not wanting to become a citizen would need a work visa or student visa to stay longer than a typical vacation).

One of the defining elements in early immigration of poor people was that they came as indentured servants ...

quote:
Indentured Servants

Indentured servitude was a labor system whereby young people paid for their passage to the New World by working for an employer for a certain number of years. It was widely employed in the 18th century in the British colonies in North America and elsewhere. It was especially used as a way for poor youth in Britain and the German states to get passage to the American colonies. They would work for a fixed number of years, then be free to work on their own. The employer purchased the indenture from the sea captain who brought the youths over; he did so because he needed labour. Some worked as farmers or helpers for farm wives, some were apprenticed to craftsmen. Both sides were legally obligated to meet the terms, which were enforced by local American courts. Runaways were sought out and returned. About half of the white immigrants to the American colonies in the 17th and 18th centuries were indentured. ...


A system that did see some abuse (just as many current "illegal" immigrants are often abused), but which provided opportunity to those who came and wanted to become citizens.

Seems to me that this program could be revived with some modifications:

  • You sign on for 5 years of work, employers provide lists of jobs to sign up for,
  • For each dependent not capable of work (child\parent\handicapped) you need an able bodied worker to do their work,
  • You learn english and american history in schools,
  • At the end you pass a proficiency test in english and history

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Taq, posted 02-09-2015 4:23 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 02-09-2015 4:51 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 02-09-2015 4:55 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-10-2015 3:19 PM RAZD has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8488
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 7.4


(1)
Message 2 of 43 (749864)
02-09-2015 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-09-2015 4:02 PM


This doesn't have to be complicated, there is a lot of demand for farm workers and other low wage positions, there is room, there is opportunity ....
Back at the start of this country there was virtually unregulated immigration, and I don't see any moral justification for more regulation or barriers to immigration. If you could get here that was enough.

What I have been seeing is a lot of xenophobic concerns. Some people are afraid of losing the "white" culture. In previous generations, this was built into our immigration laws where people from preferred countries could immigrate while people from other countries were limited. The Irish, Scottish, and Germans came flooding in, but the it wasn't long before the number of Chinese were limited to a quota.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Act_of_1924

One of the defining elements in early immigration of poor people was that they came as indentured servants ...

The US Military has largely taken up this role. It has been suggested that military service could be an avenue for legal immigration. Serve in the military for 6 years and leave as a US citizen. This could certainly be a great program for the "Dreamers".

http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/...o-and-where-dreamers-are


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 02-09-2015 4:02 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 02-09-2015 5:02 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 43 (749866)
02-09-2015 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-09-2015 4:02 PM


The Big Deal is that RAZD Misses the Intricaces of a Complicated Situation... Again
Back at the start of this country there was virtually unregulated immigration, and I don't see any moral justification for more regulation or barriers to immigration.

There was also a population shortage.

There should be one single basic requirement: that you want to become a US citizen (and anyone not wanting to become a citizen would need a work visa or student visa to stay longer than a typical vacation).

That's it? If you want to be a U.S. citizen to make it easier to fly planes into buildings then that should be just fine?

Seems to me that this program could be revived with some modifications:

  • You sign on for 5 years of work, employers provide lists of jobs to sign up for,
  • For each dependent not capable of work (child\parent\handicapped) you need an able bodied worker to do their work,
  • You learn english and american history in schools,
  • At the end you pass a proficiency test in english and history

As usual, RAZD, your blanket fixes are little more than oversimplified nonsense to which no reasonable person should give second thought.

Jon


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 02-09-2015 4:02 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 02-10-2015 5:40 AM Jon has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 4 of 43 (749868)
02-09-2015 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
02-09-2015 4:02 PM


Seems to me that this program could be revived with some modifications:

Cool. A caste system primarily for brown people who pick our oranges.

For each dependent not capable of work (child\parent\handicapped) you need an able bodied worker to do their work

Would you do a self critique on the math behind this one? Would a mom and dad with say a handicapped infant meet this requirement? One parent and one child that cannot work.

Indentured servitude was a labor system whereby young people paid for their passage

That was just to pay their fare. Indentured servitude should not be the guidelines for immigration policy.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 02-09-2015 4:02 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 02-10-2015 5:45 AM NoNukes has responded
 Message 10 by PurpleYouko, posted 02-10-2015 9:44 AM NoNukes has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 43 (749869)
02-09-2015 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Taq
02-09-2015 4:23 PM


What I have been seeing is a lot of xenophobic concerns.

Dang! Speak of the devil...


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Taq, posted 02-09-2015 4:23 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 6 of 43 (749899)
02-10-2015 5:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Jon
02-09-2015 4:51 PM


Re: The Big Deal is that Jon hyperventilates paranoia ... Again
There was also a population shortage.

There is a shortage of farm workers now.

That's it? If you want to be a U.S. citizen to make it easier to fly planes into buildings then that should be just fine?

See Message 2.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Jon, posted 02-09-2015 4:51 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 02-10-2015 8:43 AM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 7 of 43 (749900)
02-10-2015 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NoNukes
02-09-2015 4:55 PM


Cool. A caste system primarily for brown people who pick our oranges.

Temporary and for all immigrants.

Would you do a self critique on the math behind this one? Would a mom and dad with say a handicapped infant meet this requirement? One parent and one child that cannot work.

An extra burden but not oppressive.

That was just to pay their fare. Indentured servitude should not be the guidelines for immigration policy.

Curiously I think of it as being a citizen on probation, learning and earning the right to be a citizen.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 02-09-2015 4:55 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 02-10-2015 8:43 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 43 (749905)
02-10-2015 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
02-10-2015 5:40 AM


Re: The Big Deal is that Jon hyperventilates paranoia ... Again
Excellent. A non-response. Exactly what I anticipated getting from you.

Makes my job easier, I guess.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 02-10-2015 5:40 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 02-10-2015 10:59 AM Jon has not yet responded
 Message 19 by NoNukes, posted 02-10-2015 5:41 PM Jon has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 43 (749906)
02-10-2015 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
02-10-2015 5:45 AM


"For all immigrants".

I said, primarily. Was that wrong.

"Not oppressive"

Not for you and I. No.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 02-10-2015 5:45 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


(3)
Message 10 of 43 (749908)
02-10-2015 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NoNukes
02-09-2015 4:55 PM


indentured servitude still alive and kicking
A form of indentured servitude is still used very often by many employers.

I myself encountered it while moving to the USA from England.
My employer here offered me a relocation package but only as long as I signed a contract saying I would stay in their employ for 5 years after immigrating.
I didn't mind though. It actually makes a lot of sense to do it that way.

On another more general note though (not directed at NoNukes), I can't say I'm in favor of making it too easy to immigrate to the USA.
That is unless it applies to ALL Immigrants and right now the system clearly favors people who do it illegally.

It cost me over $30,000 for lawyers and legal fees to get green cards for myself and my family so I must admit to some mild annoyance when I hear of unskilled illegals being given amnesty and a free green card/citizenship.
It took 9 years to get my green card, during which time my wife was not allowed to work and my kids were not eligible for any college scholarships or able to get part time jobs to help pay for themselves.

I was headhunted for my skills and the process of moving to the USA literally bankrupted me.

There definitely needs to be some sort of overhaul of the immigration system but all the stuff being proposed seems to be a complete miss IMO.

Also, did you know that immigrants from the UK are not even eligible for the green card lottery? that is restricted to natives of many 3rd world countries who apparently need it more.

Edited by PurpleYouko, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 02-09-2015 4:55 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by NoNukes, posted 02-10-2015 10:38 AM PurpleYouko has responded
 Message 17 by Jon, posted 02-10-2015 3:44 PM PurpleYouko has not yet responded
 Message 18 by NoNukes, posted 02-10-2015 5:39 PM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 43 (749913)
02-10-2015 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by PurpleYouko
02-10-2015 9:44 AM


Re: indentured servitude still alive and kicking
On another more general note though (not directed at NoNukes), I can't say I'm in favor of making it too easy to immigrate to the USA. That is unless it applies to ALL Immigrants and right now the system clearly favors people who do it illegally.

not directed at NoNukes

I don't mind. But I haven't actually expressed any opinion other than not treating people like crap once we've decided to let them in. I'm not in favor of letting people in legally, but then coming up with rules that keeps their families out.

It cost me over $30,000 for lawyers and legal fees to get green cards for myself and my family so I must admit to some mild annoyance when I hear of unskilled illegals being given amnesty and a free green card/citizenship.

In my opinion, you got slammed. On the other hand, even unskilled labor has value and is in demand here. What would be the point of charging someone $30,000 or making the system so complicated they have to pay a lawyer such a fee, when we apparently want them here so we can pay them crap wages?


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by PurpleYouko, posted 02-10-2015 9:44 AM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by PurpleYouko, posted 02-10-2015 11:11 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 02-10-2015 1:01 PM NoNukes has responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 43 (749917)
02-10-2015 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jon
02-10-2015 8:43 AM


Re: The Big Deal is that Jon hyperventilates paranoia ... Again
Excellent. A non-response. Exactly what I anticipated getting from you.

Curiously you offered nothing worth responding to other than an ad hominem fallacy.

Nor did you offer anything cogent as an alternative.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 02-10-2015 8:43 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 714
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 13 of 43 (749921)
02-10-2015 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by NoNukes
02-10-2015 10:38 AM


Re: indentured servitude still alive and kicking
Yours was just the first post I noticed mentioning Indentured servitude while i was skimming thorough so I used it as an entry point.
I wasn't commenting on any opinion or lack thereof. ^_^

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by NoNukes, posted 02-10-2015 10:38 AM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 14 of 43 (749932)
02-10-2015 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by NoNukes
02-10-2015 10:38 AM


Re: indentured servitude still alive and kicking -- an equal path to citizenship
I don't mind. But I haven't actually expressed any opinion other than not treating people like crap once we've decided to let them in. I'm not in favor of letting people in legally, but then coming up with rules that keeps their families out.

So you have no objection to a simpler system that could be applied to both legal immigrants and ones that have come by nefarious means -- a equal path to citizenship where you earn your card by the same process.

With a more open door policy the issue of "jumping to the front of the line" becomes moot -- the "line" is your 5 years of work.

... . On the other hand, even unskilled labor has value and is in demand here. What would be the point of charging someone $30,000 or making the system so complicated they have to pay a lawyer such a fee, when we apparently want them here so we can pay them crap wages?

Another argument for a living minimum wage for all workers and a simple way to become a citizen -- work your 5 years, learn english and american history in night schools and then pass the test.

Historically an influx of workers has stimulated the economy with real growth in small businesses and local companies.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : .


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by NoNukes, posted 02-10-2015 10:38 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 02-10-2015 2:50 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 15 of 43 (749946)
02-10-2015 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by RAZD
02-10-2015 1:01 PM


Re: indentured servitude still alive and kicking -- an equal path to citizenship
We don't have a living wage system. Instead we have a system where the labor required to do some tasks is actually valued at more than most people are willing to pay to have the work completed or more than they are willing to pay for the end product. So employers cheat and the illegal workers get cast as the villains that we can treat like crap.

No, I don't need five years worth of lawns mowed and apples picked at sub market pay scales before I allow you to become a citizen.


Je Suis Charlie

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by RAZD, posted 02-10-2015 1:01 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
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