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Author Topic:   Sinning for Others
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 43 (753525)
03-20-2015 12:36 PM


Do you believe in unforgivable sin?

What do you consider these sins to be?

If it meant saving the life of an innocent person, would you commit an unforgivable sin damning your soul to eternal torment?


Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-20-2015 12:47 PM Jon has responded
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2015 1:16 PM Jon has responded
 Message 9 by Theodoric, posted 03-20-2015 2:12 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply
 Message 13 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 10:36 AM Jon has responded
 Message 24 by GDR, posted 07-09-2015 8:52 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1911
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 43 (753527)
03-20-2015 12:38 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Sinning for Others thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 3 of 43 (753529)
03-20-2015 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
03-20-2015 12:36 PM


Throwing Stones
Jon writes:

Do you believe in unforgivable sin?

The only sin that is unforgivable to to ignore ones conscience(Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit) which, I believe everyone has an awareness of...even if they see Him merely as their own conscience. To repeatedly and knowingly denying and/or ignoring what we (I) am called to do is unforgivable, in my mind. I could never feel comfortable with myself...nevermind what God thinks.

Jon writes:

If it meant saving the life of an innocent person, would you commit an unforgivable sin damning your soul to eternal torment?

I would never knowing do anything were I to believe I would be damned eternally...or even briefly!

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 12:36 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 12:55 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded
 Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2015 1:11 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 43 (753530)
03-20-2015 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Thugpreacha
03-20-2015 12:47 PM


Re: Throwing Stones
Jon writes:

If it meant saving the life of an innocent person, would you commit an unforgivable sin damning your soul to eternal torment?

I would never knowing do anything were I to believe I would be damned eternally...or even briefly!

Thank you for your answer and your honesty.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-20-2015 12:47 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 5 of 43 (753535)
03-20-2015 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Thugpreacha
03-20-2015 12:47 PM


Re: Throwing Stones
The only sin that is unforgivable to to ignore ones conscience(Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit)

That's not what Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is.

Jesus had healed a man through the power of the Holy Spirit and then the Pharisees said that Jesus had used Beelzebub's power to do it.

That's what Jesus said Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was. Its when God does something and then you go: "Nah, that wasn't God that was the devil."

From Matthew 12:

quote:
22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-20-2015 12:47 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 43 (753538)
03-20-2015 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
03-20-2015 12:36 PM



Do you believe in unforgivable sin?
What do you consider these sins to be?

The Bible says that the only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, which is when God does something and you say that it wasn't God but something else that did it. See previous message.

I think that it works the other way around too.

So if you do something and you know it wasn't from God, but then you go and tell people that it was God that did it, then I think that counts too.

Like televangelists who act like they're filled with the Holy Spirit, but they're just lying and faking it so people will give them money.

It makes sense to me that God would be totally against that; being an impostor of God. It takes His place and it makes Him look bad.

If it meant saving the life of an innocent person, would you commit an unforgivable sin damning your soul to eternal torment?

Nope.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 12:36 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 1:24 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 43 (753542)
03-20-2015 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2015 1:16 PM


If it meant saving the life of an innocent person, would you commit an unforgivable sin damning your soul to eternal torment?

Nope.

Thank you for your answer and your honesty.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2015 1:16 PM New Cat's Eye has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Thugpreacha, posted 03-21-2015 11:04 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 271 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 8 of 43 (753545)
03-20-2015 1:28 PM


Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other sins are invented nonsense.

Robert A. Heinlein


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein

How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein

It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle

If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

"Multiculturalism" demands that the US be tolerant of everything except its own past, culture, traditions, and identity.


  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6269
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(2)
Message 9 of 43 (753554)
03-20-2015 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
03-20-2015 12:36 PM


Don't believe in sin.
Sin implies a deity of some sort an a transgression against this deity. Therefore since I ahve no belief in a deity, I have no belief in sin.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 12:36 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2015 7:58 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 10 of 43 (753641)
03-21-2015 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
03-20-2015 1:24 PM


Interesting Article
I read an interesting article in The National Examiner that touched on the concept of sin.

How The Modern Church Helped Create A God That People Hate

The article starts out explaining the concept of an angry God--ala Jonathan Edwards:

Jonathan Edwards-July 8, 1741 writes:

They are now the Objects of that very same Anger & Wrath of God that is expressed in the Torments of Hell: and the Reason why they dont go down to Hell at each Moment, is not because God, in whose Power they are, is not then very angry with them; as angry as he is with many of those miserable Creatures that he is now tormenting in Hell, and do there feel and bear the fierceness of his Wrath. Yea God is a great deal more angry with great Numbers that are now on Earth, yea doubtless with many that are now in this Congregation, that it may be are at Ease and Quiet, than he is with many of those that are now in the Flames of Hell. So that it is not because God is unmindful of their Wickedness, and dont resent it, that he dont let loose his Hand and cut them off. God is not altogether such an one as themselves, tho they may imagine him to be so. The Wrath of God burns against them, their Damnation dont slumber, the Pit is prepared, the Fire is made ready, the Furnace is now hot, ready to receive them, the Flames do now rage and glow. The glittering Sword is whet, and held over them, and the Pit hath opened her Mouth under them. The Devil stands ready to fall upon them and seize them as his own, at what Moment God shall permit him. They belong to him; he has their Souls in his Possession, and under his Dominion.

The God portrayed in "Sinners In The Hands Of An Angry God" is then contrasted with the lovey dovey God of megachurch Pastor Joel Osteen.
Joel Osteen-May 18, 2014 writes:

he good news is God already approved you.
Quit working for something you already have.
When He created you he looked at you and said that was good.
Dont be insecure and intimidated.
If people dont want to be your friend let them go.
Theres freedom when you realize youre not waiting for it youre already approved.
The Creator of the universe has already blessed me.
You may not feel blessed.
Your checking account may not look blessed.
Youve got to believe it then youll see it.
Declare I am blessed.
I am prosperous.
I am the head and not the tail.
That activates the blessing.
Hold your head up high.
Walk with confidence.
Youre royalty.
Destined to reign.
Go get your healing, dreams, abundance, and victory with your name on it.
You dont have to pray for what you already have.
Just start acting like it's true.

The author argues that both men were essentially megachurch evangelists of their day and asks

quote:
So to what does history owe this progression of theology from fear in light of a God who cannot abide the proud to pride in light of a God who cannot abide fear?

The author argues that both preachers appeal to emotionalism in a good cop/bad cop sort of way. While modern Christianity is no better than "feel good therapy", the author comes to the crux of his point.
quote:
And so humans refuse a God who stands in judgment over them, standing in judgment over God instead. They either create a soft and comfortable God, or they injure this cosmic authority figure in the only way they know how: insults and unbelief.

Perhaps I have altered the context which the author intended, so I recommend reading this one page article.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 1:24 PM Jon has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 11 of 43 (761832)
07-06-2015 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Theodoric
03-20-2015 2:12 PM


Sin by definition
Theodoric writes:

Don't believe in sin.
Sin implies a deity of some sort an a transgression against this deity. Therefore since I have no belief in a deity, I have no belief in sin.

I suppose the question is whether sin is a belief or a definition of transgression in general.


God created war so that Americans would learn geography. Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Theodoric, posted 03-20-2015 2:12 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by ringo, posted 07-06-2015 12:12 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 16633
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 12 of 43 (761887)
07-06-2015 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Thugpreacha
07-06-2015 7:58 AM


Re: Sin by definition
Phat writes:

I suppose the question is whether sin is a belief or a definition of transgression in general.


If sin can be a transgression against yourself, for example, it should be possible to forgive yourself.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-06-2015 7:58 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Mal
Junior Member (Idle past 1341 days)
Posts: 15
From: Stockholm
Joined: 07-09-2015


Message 13 of 43 (762145)
07-09-2015 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
03-20-2015 12:36 PM


First post >.<
Hi

I am a noob so please go easy on me if I misunderstand something or my English is not perfect.

I was confused by the first two sentences as one refers to a single item and the other to plural.

"Do you believe in unforgivable sin" and "what do you consider these sins (pl) to be"

We were told that there is only one unforgivable sin and that has been explained (blasphemy of the HS).

The next question I am confused about.

"If it meant saving the life of an innocent person, would you commit an unforgivable sin damning your soul to eternal torment?"

I am not sure under which circumstances this could happen.

If you save the life of an innocent person is that not a good thing that deserves a reward rather than a punishment?

Would it not be wrong to stand by and allow the innocent person to die, assuming you are capable of saving that person?

I am not sure which god would sentence someone to eternal torment for saving an innocent person.

I hope I have explained well enough.

Thank you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 03-20-2015 12:36 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-09-2015 11:12 AM Mal has responded
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-09-2015 12:43 PM Mal has responded
 Message 23 by Jon, posted 07-09-2015 8:17 PM Mal has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 14 of 43 (762149)
07-09-2015 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Mal
07-09-2015 10:36 AM


Re: First post >.<
Welcome to EvC, Mal.

I think that what Jon meant was to ask if any one of us would...of their own free will...take on the sin of another (kinda like Jesus did) even if it meant we would perish as a result.

I might be wrong, however.

We often go round and round on the same basic subjects, here. mal.

Hows Sweden, by the way?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 10:36 AM Mal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 3:07 PM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 43 (762162)
07-09-2015 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Mal
07-09-2015 10:36 AM


Re: First post >.<
We were told that there is only one unforgivable sin and that has been explained (blasphemy of the HS).

What does blasphemy of the HS mean to you? Can you give an example of it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 10:36 AM Mal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 07-09-2015 1:09 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 19 by Mal, posted 07-09-2015 3:14 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
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