Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9023 total)
49 online now:
AZPaul3, Phat (AdminPhat), Tangle (3 members, 46 visitors)
Newest Member: Ashles
Post Volume: Total: 882,695 Year: 341/14,102 Month: 341/294 Week: 97/136 Day: 16/33 Hour: 2/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Hypocrisy Among American Fundamentalists
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 1 of 122 (777068)
01-25-2016 2:23 PM


Terms are often used loosely and I think that the term evangelical is often used loosely misunderstood. Although the “Atlantic” article that I will link uses the term evangelical Christian, I think a more precise term for what they are describing is fundamentalist Christian.

My contention is that American fundamentalists have a belief that is more than simply their version of Christianity. It is in reality a blend of their faith, politics and nationalism. As a Christian myself, I would consider myself evangelical even though my beliefs are a long way from the beliefs of fundamentalists such as Faith. it is my contention that in reality American fundamentalists use their faith to justify their politics and their brand of nationalism. They are quite prepared to ditch their Christian beliefs when necessary to support their politics and nationalism.

The following is an article from “The Atlantic” and here is the link: Why Do Evangelicals Support Donald Trump?

The point is that Christians of any stripe should be appalled a the idea of a President Donald Trump. As the article points out his life reeks of everything that Jesus condemned. He has gained power by accumulating wealth, he holds racist policies, he is pro-life when it suits him politically, and so on.

His beliefs are not Christian. He claims to belong to a Presbyterian church but doesn't attend. The article had this to say about his faith. “Trump knows this and has ramped up his religious rhetoric on the campaign trail. But he has had a difficult time convincing anyone that he is within gunshot of orthodoxy. On the matter of asking forgiveness for sins—hardly an obscure Christian doctrine—Trump says he’s never done it. “I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right,” he said recently. “I don't bring God into that picture.” Trump declared that his favorite book was the Bible, but when asked to name his favorite Bible verse, The Donald declined. And he spoke flippantly of the cornerstone Christian sacrament of communion, saying he “feels cleansed” when “I drink my little wine … and have my little cracker.”

The fundamentalists who trumpet their Christian faith are quite prepared to rationalize their faith when it comes to their politics or their sense of nationalism. In other words, their politics trumps, (pun intended ) their Christianity.

Any forum you consider suitable.

Edited by GDR, : Just really poorly written. I shouldn't post in a hurry. Thanks nwr

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Edited by GDR, : I'll get it sorted yet


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-25-2016 3:42 PM GDR has responded
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2016 3:01 AM GDR has responded
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 01-26-2016 12:08 PM GDR has responded
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2016 12:09 PM GDR has responded
 Message 10 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2016 1:13 PM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 15 by Porosity, posted 01-26-2016 3:39 PM GDR has responded
 Message 23 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-27-2016 2:18 AM GDR has not yet responded
 Message 31 by 14174dm, posted 01-30-2016 4:23 PM GDR has responded

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 1049 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 122 (777069)
01-25-2016 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
01-25-2016 2:23 PM


<<Hi GDR

I would love to move your topic proposal into a fitting forum and not just toss it into the Coffee House. It belongs somewhere within Social and Religious Issues but I'm not quite sure where.

I guess I'm looking for some additional input from the other admins.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 01-25-2016 2:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by GDR, posted 01-25-2016 6:22 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 3 of 122 (777070)
01-25-2016 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminAsgara
01-25-2016 3:42 PM


None of them fit perfectly but I'd suggest "Comparative Religions".

Obviously there are a wide variety of views on Christian theology. It is my view that Christian fundamentalism as is seen in the western world, although predominately in the US, is an aberration of the Christian faith.

In this case it is a religion that combines the idea of an inerrant Bible, politics and American nationalism. My view is that we are comparing that with a Christianity based on Scripture, reason and tradition. (I view tradition as being the accumulated wisdom over time and particularly since the time of the resurrection.

That is my rationale for putting it under "Comparative Religions"


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-25-2016 3:42 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 01-26-2016 2:43 AM GDR has responded

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 1049 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 4 of 122 (777072)
01-25-2016 8:30 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Hypocrisy Among American Fundamentalists thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 14867
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 122 (777094)
01-26-2016 2:43 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by GDR
01-25-2016 6:22 PM


Fundamentalism By Definition
GDR writes:

It is my view that Christian fundamentalism as is seen in the western world, although predominately in the US, is an aberration of the Christian faith.

First lets define a few terms, shall we?
Fundamentalist-(Urban Dictionary had the funniest response!
quote:
A person who takes their religion so literally and to such extremes that they contradict the very basis of their faith. They typically believe in a literal, verbatim interpretation of their scripture. They also have ridiculous, childish defenses to intelligent criticism of their beliefs that border on insanity.
I would say that Christians who do not consider themselves fundamentalists--or at least conservative--believe in scripture as inspired by God. This does not necessitate that it be word for word literal. I persionally lean towards a belief in thought for thought literalism. As a sidenote, our very own Ringo has a quote that bears repeating. To wit:
Ringo writes:

An atheist says, "My spirit is my psyche."
An agnostic says, "My spirit might have an external source. I don't know."
A theist says, "My spirit comes from God."
A fundamentalist says, "My spirit comes from God, but yours doesn't."


GDR writes:

In this case it is a religion that combines the idea of an inerrant Bible, politics and American nationalism. My view is that we are comparing that with a Christianity based on Scripture, reason and tradition. (I view tradition as being the accumulated wisdom over time and particularly since the time of the resurrection.

I somewhat agree with you--as we discuss this more I will define my own position.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by GDR, posted 01-25-2016 6:22 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by GDR, posted 01-26-2016 11:56 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 8051
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 6 of 122 (777095)
01-26-2016 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
01-25-2016 2:23 PM


There's a dozen or so definitions of evangelical which sort of neutralises its use. Fundamental seems now to be associated with extreme violent beliefs so, with some exceptions, that's probably not much use either.

Maybe ultra-conservative is closer? Or total bloody nutters?

Whatever, they are, they don't seem to have the same understanding of Christ's message as I do. Not only are they right wing republicans, they seem to see Jesus as an open carry member of the NRA.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 01-25-2016 2:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by GDR, posted 01-26-2016 1:22 PM Tangle has not yet responded
 Message 25 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-27-2016 7:48 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 7 of 122 (777119)
01-26-2016 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
01-26-2016 2:43 AM


Re: Fundamentalism By Definition
Phat writes:

I would say that Christians who do not consider themselves fundamentalists--or at least conservative--believe in scripture as inspired by God. This does not necessitate that it be word for word literal. I persionally lean towards a belief in thought for thought literalism.

Inspired as it applies to Scripture seems to have taken on a new meaning. Here is the Webster definition:

quote:

1 [more inspired; most inspired] : very good or clever
She gave an inspired performance.
He was an inspired choice for the role.
an inspired guess
— opposite uninspired
2: having a particular cause or influence
Her comments were politically inspired. [=they were made for political reasons]
— often used in combination

So I agree that the Biblical authors were inspired. Luke at the beginning of that Gospel tells how he believed that he should consolidate previous sources concerning the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. He was inspires just as was Beethoven who wrote inspired music.

I believe that we are inspired to read the Scriptures, and through what others have written in the past God will inspire us. The longer time goes on, the more accumulated wisdom of the nature of God we gain.

This does not mean that the Scriptures are inerrant, but as a Christian who believes that Jesus, as confirmed by His resurrection, did embody the true nature of God. With that in mind we can then use the lens of what Jesus taught as a lens in which we can understand the Bible. WE can for example know that God is not a god of genocide or public stonings, so that when we read that sort of thing in the Bible we can learn how easily and how far we can go off the rails and of the consequences of that.

If we read the Scripture as inerrant we can come up with a deity that will condone pretty much anything in certain circumstances, or in other words a god of situational ethics. Remember in Jesus we see God as someone who is telling a first century Jew living under the Roman thumb that they are to love that enemy and turn the other cheek. Again, we learn through that the true enemy is evil itself and that in the end it is about changing hearts and not about overpowering a specific enemy.

That comes back to my original point. American fundamentalists, (or whatever we want to define them as), are engaging in situational ethics in supporting Donald Trump, largely because of their faith being the a combination of their religion, their nationalism and theri politics.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 01-26-2016 2:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 18854
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 8 of 122 (777120)
01-26-2016 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
01-25-2016 2:23 PM


GDR writes:

On the matter of asking forgiveness for sins—hardly an obscure Christian doctrine—Trump says he’s never done it. “I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right,” he said recently. “I don't bring God into that picture.”


Damn it! You made me agree with Donald Trump.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 01-25-2016 2:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by GDR, posted 01-26-2016 1:28 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 122 (777121)
01-26-2016 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
01-25-2016 2:23 PM


My contention is that American fundamentalists have a belief that is more than simply their version of Christianity.

I think one problem is that fundamentalism is an evolving term that is at the current time pretty much the same as 'the belief system conservative, religious right'. The state of the union/constitution is such that many of the political goals of that part of the country are unobtainable. So often, it is not that fundamentalists do not embrace those issues, it is that they do not decide their vote on those issues.

I could make a similar case about religious minorities who turned out in droves for Obama despite his stand on gay marriage and reproductive rights. Many of those people did so despite their own positions on immigration policy being more in line with the republican position.

If such a thing is hypocritical, I submit that the hypocrisy is more widespread than just a bunch of people holding their noses and endorsing Trump. Quite frankly, I don't label such voting as hypocrisy. Religious affiliation is simply one factor in deciding who to vote for. Currently Trump leads all republican other candidates regardless of what factor (economy, foreign policy, security) in all subdivisions of likely republican voters (establishment, tea part, right leaning independents).

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 01-25-2016 2:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by GDR, posted 01-26-2016 1:53 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 122 (777124)
01-26-2016 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
01-25-2016 2:23 PM


By the way. I see that Jerry Falwell Jr. has endorsed Trump.

Trump was quoted last week as saying that he wasn't sure why evangelicals were so enamored with him. Pretty funny IMO.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 01-25-2016 2:23 PM GDR has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


Message 11 of 122 (777126)
01-26-2016 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tangle
01-26-2016 3:01 AM


Tangle writes:

Fundamental seems now to be associated with extreme violent beliefs so, with some exceptions, that's probably not much use either.
Maybe ultra-conservative is closer?

I think that there are those on this forum who are happy to be called Christian fundamentalists, and I don't see them advocating for torching mosques or anything similar.

Maybe we can just use fundamentalist and ultra-conservative as synonyms.

Tangle writes:

Whatever, they are, they don't seem to have the same understanding of Christ's message as I do. Not only are they right wing republicans, they seem to see Jesus as an open carry member of the NRA.

That is my point. They compromise Christian belief in order to accommodate their politics and their nationalism.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tangle, posted 01-26-2016 3:01 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 12 of 122 (777127)
01-26-2016 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
01-26-2016 12:08 PM


ringo writes:

Damn it! You made me agree with Donald Trump.

...and so I'm sure that you are already signed up and contributing to the Kevin O'Leary for Prime Minister club.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 01-26-2016 12:08 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
GDR
Member (Idle past 97 days)
Posts: 5409
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005


(1)
Message 13 of 122 (777131)
01-26-2016 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by NoNukes
01-26-2016 12:09 PM


NoNukes writes:

I think one problem is that fundamentalism is an evolving term that is at the current time pretty much the same as 'the belief system conservative, religious right'. The state of the union/constitution is such that many of the political goals of that part of the country are unobtainable. So often, it is not that fundamentalists do not embrace those issues, it is that they do not decide their vote on those issues.

I could make a similar case about religious minorities who turned out in droves for Obama despite his stand on gay marriage and reproductive rights. Many of those people did so despite their own positions on immigration policy being more in line with the republican position.

If such a thing is hypocritical, I submit that the hypocrisy is more widespread than just a bunch of people holding their noses and endorsing Trump. Quite frankly, I don't label such voting as hypocrisy. Religious affiliation is simply one factor in deciding who to vote for. Currently Trump leads all republican other candidates regardless of what factor (economy, foreign policy, security) in all subdivisions of likely republican voters (establishment, tea part, right leaning independents).

Of course every time we vote we have to make compromises. We aren't going to find politicians that we will always agree with.

My point though is that fundamentalists aren't evenly split between the various candidates. They seem like, as have Palin and Falwell, they have coalesced around Trump.

My point is that what they believe to be their Christian beliefs are in fact coloured as much, and in this case more, by their political beliefs as well as their sense of nationalism. I have had the view expressed to me that the USA is God's chosen nation.

This is not in any way meant to be taken as anti-American. Personally I am very pro-American and although I have always lived in Canada my immediate family is very much a cross border one, including my wife, one of my sons and 4 grand-kids. It isn't being anti-American to oppose the proliferation of guns, or even things like the idea of regime change in Iraq.

Look at my signature. The fundamentalists who support Trump believe in an inerrant Bible. We have seen enough of Trump on television over the years that kind is not a word that would come to mind in describing him. What kind of justice is it to essentially treat all Muslims as potential terrorists. Certainly humility is not a term that anyone would use when it comes to Trump.

So yes, we do have to take some water in our wine when it comes to our politics, but in this case I suggest that there is considerably more water than there is wine and that their politics have overwhelmed their Christianity which requires a degree of hypocrisy, when one considers their fundamentalist doctrine.


He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.

Micah 6:8


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 01-26-2016 12:09 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33107
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 14 of 122 (777133)
01-26-2016 2:25 PM


Christianity and Christ are not synonyms.
It is certainly possible to find material that can be used to portray Jesus as someone who was preaching "turning the other cheek" or "follow the laws" but that is really the same mistake the Fundamentalists, Biblical Christians, Bible Christians, authoritarian right make; the other side of the coin. And it also has absolutely nothing to do with what Christianity was or is.

We need to understand and admit that Christianity has been and still is diverse with good and bad points and positions. It's up to us to pick how Christianity is expressed.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

  
Porosity
Member (Idle past 841 days)
Posts: 158
From: MT, USA
Joined: 06-15-2013


Message 15 of 122 (777139)
01-26-2016 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
01-25-2016 2:23 PM


Trump knows his base is not rational, this is why he can insult anyone ( including them!) and get away with it.
Why would any Christian support a billionaire for president when there is nothing more Christian than preventing rich people from becoming rich? There's never been a single documented case of a camel passing through the eye of needle, that's a nice a way of saying "a snowball's chance in hell." After all, Trumps chance of going to heaven (as rich) is zero according to the Jesus myth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 01-25-2016 2:23 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by GDR, posted 01-26-2016 4:08 PM Porosity has not yet responded

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2021