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Author Topic:   my new favourite evidence for evolution
monkenstick
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 14 (17751)
09-19-2002 4:08 AM


are humans and other primates one "kind" Tranquility Base?
Just a moment...

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Mammuthus, posted 09-19-2002 4:29 AM monkenstick has not replied
 Message 3 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-19-2002 8:19 AM monkenstick has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 2 of 14 (17753)
09-19-2002 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by monkenstick
09-19-2002 4:08 AM


quote:
Originally posted by monkenstick:
are humans and other primates one "kind" Tranquility Base?
Just a moment...

*******************************
Good citation monkenstick. There are some further studies using differences in LINE and SINE integration differences in the works as well addressing old world monkey, new world, and the great ape relationships....oops I mean "kinds"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by monkenstick, posted 09-19-2002 4:08 AM monkenstick has not replied

  
Tranquility Base
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 14 (17768)
09-19-2002 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by monkenstick
09-19-2002 4:08 AM


Monkenstick
There are three possibilities in our scenario:
1. The retroviral sequences were originally designed in and had an initial (pre-fall for example) beneficial role.
2. The retroviral sequences inserted during the fall.
3. The retroviral seqeunces inserted deterministically at some other time via DNA motifs and hence incorporate relative to phylogenetics.
It is good evidence of common descent, don't get me wrong, but it has possible answers in our scenario.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by monkenstick, posted 09-19-2002 4:08 AM monkenstick has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by mark24, posted 09-19-2002 8:32 AM Tranquility Base has not replied
 Message 5 by nos482, posted 09-19-2002 9:14 AM Tranquility Base has not replied
 Message 7 by derwood, posted 09-19-2002 10:29 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 4 of 14 (17769)
09-19-2002 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tranquility Base
09-19-2002 8:19 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Monkenstick
There are three possibilities in our scenario:
1. The retroviral sequences were originally designed in and had an initial (pre-fall for example) beneficial role.
2. The retroviral sequences inserted during the fall.
3. The retroviral seqeunces inserted deterministically at some other time via DNA motifs and hence incorporate relative to phylogenetics.
It is good evidence of common descent, don't get me wrong, but it has possible answers in our scenario.

You have evidence of the "fall", that is acceptable to science?
If not, wouldn't you agree that common descent is the best explanation?
Mark
------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-19-2002 8:19 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 14 (17770)
09-19-2002 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tranquility Base
09-19-2002 8:19 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Monkenstick
There are three possibilities in our scenario:
1. The retroviral sequences were originally designed in and had an initial (pre-fall for example) beneficial role.
2. The retroviral sequences inserted during the fall.
3. The retroviral seqeunces inserted deterministically at some other time via DNA motifs and hence incorporate relative to phylogenetics.
It is good evidence of common descent, don't get me wrong, but it has possible answers in our scenario.

The so-called Fall of Man was a set up, as in planned all along. Adam and Eve had absolutely no concept of what right or wrong, or good and evil were. They knew nothing of what a consequence was either before they ate of the apple. In order for a person to be able to make such decisions they first must be able to understand these concepts, otherwise they are innocent children. As I've stated before, would you toss your children out into the world naked and ignorant the very first time they may have disobeied you? Would you be that much of an unfit parent. Would you demand that if some other parent did this to their children that they be arrested and charge as an unfit parent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-19-2002 8:19 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by derwood, posted 09-19-2002 10:31 AM nos482 has not replied

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 1876 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 6 of 14 (17775)
09-19-2002 10:28 AM



Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by peter borger, posted 09-19-2002 11:48 PM derwood has not replied

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 1876 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 7 of 14 (17776)
09-19-2002 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Tranquility Base
09-19-2002 8:19 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Monkenstick
There are three possibilities in our scenario:
1. The retroviral sequences were originally designed in and had an initial (pre-fall for example) beneficial role.
2. The retroviral sequences inserted during the fall.
3. The retroviral seqeunces inserted deterministically at some other time via DNA motifs and hence incorporate relative to phylogenetics.
It is good evidence of common descent, don't get me wrong, but it has possible answers in our scenario.

What fall is that? Is there any evidence for this 'fall'? How would this 'fall' affect genomes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Tranquility Base, posted 09-19-2002 8:19 AM Tranquility Base has not replied

  
derwood
Member (Idle past 1876 days)
Posts: 1457
Joined: 12-27-2001


Message 8 of 14 (17778)
09-19-2002 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by nos482
09-19-2002 9:14 AM


quote:
Originally posted by nos482:
quote:
Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
Monkenstick
There are three possibilities in our scenario:
1. The retroviral sequences were originally designed in and had an initial (pre-fall for example) beneficial role.
2. The retroviral sequences inserted during the fall.
3. The retroviral seqeunces inserted deterministically at some other time via DNA motifs and hence incorporate relative to phylogenetics.
It is good evidence of common descent, don't get me wrong, but it has possible answers in our scenario.

The so-called Fall of Man was a set up, as in planned all along. Adam and Eve had absolutely no concept of what right or wrong, or good and evil were. They knew nothing of what a consequence was either before they ate of the apple. In order for a person to be able to make such decisions they first must be able to understand these concepts, otherwise they are innocent children. As I've stated before, would you toss your children out into the world naked and ignorant the very first time they may have disobeied you? Would you be that much of an unfit parent. Would you demand that if some other parent did this to their children that they be arrested and charge as an unfit parent?

Yes - I have always been astonished at the cold-heartedness displayed by the Hebrew tribal deity to its supposed 'children.'
That and the wickedness of its tendency to slaughter innocents for, apparently, its own satisfaction.
Sort of like worshipping Stalin or Pol Pot....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nos482, posted 09-19-2002 9:14 AM nos482 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RedVento, posted 09-19-2002 11:22 AM derwood has not replied

  
RedVento
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 14 (17779)
09-19-2002 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by derwood
09-19-2002 10:31 AM


They weren't being cruel, they were obeying their war-god. The one they kept in the Ark of the Covenant, YHWH. Actually the hebrew god, and his angels were always warrior like, not the kind hearted bearded man that is portrayed by Jesus and now the catholic church.
Page Not Found: 404 Error | Humboldt State University
http://www.oneworldmagazine.org/focus/etiopia/arkref.html
a brief history of Yawheh with the early hebrews :
Judaism
more on god's unloving nature :
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/godbible.html
that should be enough for now..
I am always fascinated by how christians resolve the changing nature of god from the OT to the NT.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by derwood, posted 09-19-2002 10:31 AM derwood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by nos482, posted 09-19-2002 2:58 PM RedVento has not replied
 Message 13 by Andya Primanda, posted 09-21-2002 6:31 AM RedVento has not replied

  
nos482
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 14 (17784)
09-19-2002 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RedVento
09-19-2002 11:22 AM


quote:
Originally posted by RedVento:
They weren't being cruel, they were obeying their war-god. The one they kept in the Ark of the Covenant, YHWH. Actually the hebrew god, and his angels were always warrior like, not the kind hearted bearded man that is portrayed by Jesus and now the catholic church.
Page Not Found: 404 Error | Humboldt State University
http://www.oneworldmagazine.org/focus/etiopia/arkref.html
a brief history of Yawheh with the early hebrews :
Judaism
more on god's unloving nature :
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/godbible.html
that should be enough for now..
I am always fascinated by how christians resolve the changing nature of god from the OT to the NT.

I'm amazed that when they read this myth of Adam and Eve that they don't actually see the flaw in it. It's so obvious you could drive a semi through it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RedVento, posted 09-19-2002 11:22 AM RedVento has not replied

  
peter borger
Member (Idle past 7665 days)
Posts: 965
From: australia
Joined: 07-05-2002


Message 11 of 14 (17814)
09-19-2002 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by derwood
09-19-2002 10:28 AM


I like this one,
Genetica 1996 Oct;98(2):217-9
A unique genomic sequence in the Wolf-Hirschhorn syndrome [WHS] region of humans is conserved in the great apes.
Tarzami ST, Kringstein AM, Conte RA, Verma RS.
Division of Genetics, Long Island College Hospital, SUNY Health Science Center, Brooklyn 11201, USA.
The Wolf-Hirschhorn syndrome (WHS) is caused by a partial deletion in the short arm of chromosome 4 band 16.3 (4p 16.3). A unique-sequence human DNA probe (39 kb) localized within this region has been used to search for sequence homology in the apes' equivalent chromosome 3 by FISH-technique. The WHS loci are conserved in higher primates at the expected position. Nevertheless, a control probe, which detects alphoid sequences of the pericentromeric region of humans, is diverged in chimpanzee, gorilla, and orangutan. The conservation of WHS loci and divergence of DNA alphoid sequences have further added to the controversy concerning human descent.
PMID: 8976066 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by derwood, posted 09-19-2002 10:28 AM derwood has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Mammuthus, posted 09-20-2002 4:23 AM peter borger has not replied

  
Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 12 of 14 (17837)
09-20-2002 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by peter borger
09-19-2002 11:48 PM


quote:
Originally posted by peter borger:
I like this one,
Genetica 1996 Oct;98(2):217-9
A unique genomic sequence in the Wolf-Hirschhorn syndrome [WHS] region of humans is conserved in the great apes.
Tarzami ST, Kringstein AM, Conte RA, Verma RS.
Division of Genetics, Long Island College Hospital, SUNY Health Science Center, Brooklyn 11201, USA.
The Wolf-Hirschhorn syndrome (WHS) is caused by a partial deletion in the short arm of chromosome 4 band 16.3 (4p 16.3). A unique-sequence human DNA probe (39 kb) localized within this region has been used to search for sequence homology in the apes' equivalent chromosome 3 by FISH-technique. The WHS loci are conserved in higher primates at the expected position. Nevertheless, a control probe, which detects alphoid sequences of the pericentromeric region of humans, is diverged in chimpanzee, gorilla, and orangutan. The conservation of WHS loci and divergence of DNA alphoid sequences have further added to the controversy concerning human descent.
PMID: 8976066 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hmm controversy concering human descent..for example did Homo sapiens and Homo neandertalis mix genetically? Yeah, your selective reading really is overthrowing evolution...LOL!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by peter borger, posted 09-19-2002 11:48 PM peter borger has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 14 (17924)
09-21-2002 6:31 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RedVento
09-19-2002 11:22 AM


quote:
Originally posted by RedVento:
They weren't being cruel, they were obeying their war-god. The one they kept in the Ark of the Covenant, YHWH. Actually the hebrew god, and his angels were always warrior like, not the kind hearted bearded man that is portrayed by Jesus and now the catholic church.

Warrior-God? Then examples of true believers must be the merciless Zionists and Osama bin Laden (US-made terrorist). And the people who thinks otherwise will end up in Hell...
[escapes from a hail of stones thrown by an angry fundamnetalist Muslim mob]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by RedVento, posted 09-19-2002 11:22 AM RedVento has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by outblaze, posted 09-21-2002 11:47 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
outblaze
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 14 (17936)
09-21-2002 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Andya Primanda
09-21-2002 6:31 AM


Can someone tell me the implication/significance of this research in laymen terms? I'm not knowledgeable in the field.
Just a moment...
Catarrhine phylogeny: noncoding DNA evidence for a diphyletic origin of the mangabeys and for a human-chimpanzee clade - PubMed

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Andya Primanda, posted 09-21-2002 6:31 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
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