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Author Topic:   Thermodynamics and The Universe
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 1 of 2 (382976)
02-06-2007 2:28 PM


In the recently closed thread, our new member EODoc made some claims regarding the nature of the universe, inspired by consideration of the laws of Thermodynamics. These are oft-repeated claims by the creationist crowd and I would like to propose a thread where we can discuss this.
I open with my reply to EODoc but would encourage others to join in with comments, questions and refutations Big Bang & Comsology of course!
In short, the fact that we exist demonstrates that possibility 1 cannot be true because if the universe is infinitely old then such a state (the heat death) would have already been reached.
Heat death is a state that exists in an open or flat Friedmann ( or closed Lemaitre ) Robertson Walker universe. None of these are universes that have always existed. There are many possibilities for eternally existing universes that do not have thermodynamic problems. Next?
I hope you can see quite clearly that if the universe created itself then we have a little problem called the first law of thermodynamics. Let me know if you need me to expound on what the 1st law is in real terms.
Please do, as I would love to hear your ideas on thermodynamics in a closed universe. First off perhaps you would like to define "energy" as that seems rather important for your 1LoT. And what would happen to your 1LoT as your definition of energy breaks down and becomes fairly meaningless (as all mine do when we get back toward t=0 in a F(L)RW universe)
I hope you can see quite clearly that if the universe created itself then we have a little problem called the first law of thermodynamics
No, on the contrary, the 1LoT has the problems when we enter regions of the universe where naive ideas of energy and heat and such-like make little to no sense.
I don't think you can argue against this except by saying that the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to the universe as a whole but it would be hard to make such an argument based on known science
Thermodynamics applies to systems of multitudes of classical particles. To consider the Universe as a whole is to have one very unclassical particle. How exactly does Thermod even begin to apply?

AdminNosy
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Message 2 of 2 (382988)
02-06-2007 2:58 PM


Thread copied to the Thermodynamics and The Universe thread in the Big Bang and Cosmology forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

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