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Author Topic:   John McCain and the Discovery Institute
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 83 (384876)
02-13-2007 11:57 AM


McCain To Deliver Keynote Speech For Creationists
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 2 of 83 (384879)
02-13-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
02-13-2007 11:57 AM


Funny how I just watched a program on possible Presidencial candidates like McCain last night. Well, you can't really expect much from someone from Iowa. There's nothing there but corn, and if you believe in corn you must believe in creation!

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5914 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 3 of 83 (384886)
02-13-2007 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
02-13-2007 11:57 AM


Oh No.. please tell me it ain't so.
quote:
Daily Star: Should intelligent design be taught in schools?
McCain: I think that there has to be all points of view presented. But they’ve got to be thoroughly presented. So to say that you can only teach one line of thinking I don’t think is - or one belief on how people and the world was created - I think there’s nothing wrong with teaching different schools of thought.
Daily Star: Does it belong in science?
McCain: There’s enough scientists that believe it does. I’m not a scientist. This is something that I think all points of view should be presented.
This would imply that Native American creation myths should also be taught or how about astrology?
Is McCain that ignorant or just disparately seeking votes.

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 4 of 83 (384889)
02-13-2007 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
02-13-2007 11:57 AM


WoW!
This election is officially going to suck. I really don't want to have to pick between McCain and Hillary. I really hope ANY other two canidates win the primaries. Go Obama! Heck even Richardson or Edwards!

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by nator, posted 02-13-2007 12:29 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 8 by Taz, posted 02-13-2007 6:09 PM Jazzns has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 5 of 83 (384890)
02-13-2007 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jazzns
02-13-2007 12:27 PM


Re: WoW!
I like Clinton over John any day.

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 6 of 83 (384923)
02-13-2007 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by iceage
02-13-2007 12:20 PM


Re: Oh No.. please tell me it ain't so.
sad to say, but he probably is. both, i should add.

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 7 of 83 (384927)
02-13-2007 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nator
02-13-2007 12:29 PM


Re: WoW!
I need to look into her more but I have some deep reservations after she started her conservative pandering crusade against video games.
What is worse, slight abrogation of the establishment clause or a slight abrogation of free speech?
At the moment I am inclined to say speech because the practical effects of including ID in the classroom will be real and negative (see Kansas). Therefore it would be easier to fix that particular bad political judgement. This is necessarily so for censorship.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 8 of 83 (384968)
02-13-2007 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jazzns
02-13-2007 12:27 PM


Re: WoW!
I'm just curious, Jazzns. What do you think of Dean?

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 9 of 83 (384974)
02-13-2007 6:35 PM


The jury's still out for me on this one
In fairness, and for the sake of completeness, we also need to consider this portion of the article that comes immediately after the bit that iceage quoted:
But last year, he said the intelligent design theory should not be taught in the science classroom:
quote:
“I think Americans should be exposed to every point of view,” he said. “I happen to believe in evolution . I respect those who think the world was created in seven days. Should it be taught as a science class? Probably not.“
Now, knowing nothing more about this topic than what I read in the article, the following possibilities occur to me:
1. He is simply pandering to whomever he happens to be addressing at the time he makes these seemingly contradictory statements. Not much of a stretch to conclude that any politician is pandering. I don't know enough about McCain to know if he is above average, average, or below average on the pandering spectrum.
2. He changed his mind. The first statement was made in 2005, the second in 2006. I am unwilling to rule out the possibility that in that intervening period, McCain learned, and realized his earlier statement was in error. This possiblity is made somewhat less likely given that he will be the keynote speaker before the Discovery Institute. However, I'm not ready to judge him on the basis of to whom he is going to speak until I hear what he has to say. He certainly would not be the first politician to speak in the lion's den.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

Replies to this message:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 10 of 83 (384983)
02-13-2007 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by subbie
02-13-2007 6:35 PM


Re: The jury's still out for me on this one
Third possibility: McCain is sugggesting the Intelligent Design point of view should be presented in a philosophy class.
In that case he's in agreement with the ACLU.

Archer
All species are transitional.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 83 (384985)
02-13-2007 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Archer Opteryx
02-13-2007 7:03 PM


Re: The jury's still out for me on this one
Actually, while I was taking philosophy in college a century ago, my philosophy professor was also against ID being taught as a philosophy. Personally, I'm not sure where it belongs... perhaps in the class called "An Introduction to how to Revert Back to the Dark Ages"?

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 12 of 83 (384986)
02-13-2007 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Archer Opteryx
02-13-2007 7:03 PM


Re: The jury's still out for me on this one
Except that in the quote that iceage included, McCain specifically said it belongs in science class. I suppose it's possible that he imagined that one can combine a science class with a philosphy of science class, but since he seemed to support his conclusion with a stated belief that "There's [sic] enough scientists that believe that it does [belong in science class]," that doesn't strike me as probable.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Archer Opteryx, posted 02-13-2007 7:03 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 83 (384987)
02-13-2007 7:16 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by subbie
02-13-2007 7:12 PM


ID & Biblical Creationism should be in Science.
I think both Biblical Creationism and ID should be taught in Science Class. We need to show how Science refutes nonsense and there are few better examples of absolute nonsense than ID and Biblical Creationism.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 14 of 83 (384990)
02-13-2007 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Taz
02-13-2007 7:11 PM


Re: The jury's still out for me on this one
When I was in college two centuries ago (this was before anyone was even using the term ID, so it must have been before you), I took a philosophy of science class where one of the textbooks was Kitcher's Abusing Science: The Case Against Creationism (with which the professor of the class was intimately familiar, having written it.) The book does a marvelous job of distinguishing creationism from science while at the same time explaining in more general terms the features that distinguish science from pseudoscience.
I agree against teaching ID itself as a philosophy, as there really isn't much of a philosophy to it anyway, but it can be a very useful tool in understanding the nature of science and scientific investigation, by providing a vivid counterexample.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 15 of 83 (384995)
02-13-2007 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Taz
02-13-2007 6:09 PM


Dean?
I don't have anything necessarily negative to say about Dean other than his emphasis of the Democratic position on the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman recently which seemed to be more of a pander to the religious right.
You are talking about Howard Dean I assume?
I am not really very well informed about his person motivations. By the time the 2004 primaries got to New Mexico he was essentially out of the race so I really didn't give him much consideration.
Stupid primary system....

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
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