Jesus and evil

This topic arises out of statement by MTW in Satan and Prayer. First off Christ suffered in what way other than death upon the cross? This is a horrible death to be sure but not n uncommon one in those days that I am sure pales in comparison to some modern day instruments of death.I would also like to understand how any sane person can believe that evil is perpetrated by anything other than humans.We wield the weapons and we deliver the blow that maims and kills.

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"O Lord our God, help us tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it..." [Mark Twain, "The War Prayer"]

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Well, thanks for thinking me insane. It seems as soon as "satan" is mentioned I'm insane. But I'm not talking about the red guy with horns, but the unseen spiritual wickedness in high places. But it was Christ who says "sufficient to the day is the evil thereof". It's not that the physical aspects of suffering/evil are in question, I just think there is a deeper, unseen force behind it. For example, an animal in no way goes to the lengths of evil that a human would. An animal kills to survive, a human might do it for pleasure, and even a reportedly sane human. Murderers themselves (serial killers) have admitted they "don't know why" they went that far. Also, it has been shown that people can know right and wrong yet do wrong. Absolutely, I agree. I just think that some levels of evil are totally beyond my capacity to understand, I can only deduce that they must have some satanic force behind them.Remember, Christ "cast out" satan. Therefore, illnesses/evil - are scripturally recognised as evil and of satan. "Deliver us from evil".

MTW I do not see how that is a conclusion you can reach without assigning the same to all acts of "evil". It is more sensible that we assume that levels of evil amount to no more than levels of reaction we have to the various acts people perpetrate against one another that inflict suffering.
Those levels reflect a measure we assess against our individual value systems,however, the acts are still the result of choices made by individuals whether it is something they can control or is a defect in the brains control of actions that is a result of possibly a chemical imbalance or damage to the brain.I also would like to know what it is about Christ's death that was so horrible that sins are magically abolished by his sacrifice.There are after all more exruciating deaths that have been suffered by others throughout history.I do not see the connection between the suffering and the abolishment of all sins {which would have amounted to a stretch in hell for all the individual sinners}. It somehow seems to make no real sense and an insufficient balance between the "evil" acts and the payment of dues.

Its another night at home on the computer...after work..and as I check the EvC forum and come across this thread, I realize that I feel more inclined to read my Bible and to understand. I have no quick post just yet. Maybe in a day or two. I thought that I knew. I will have to get back to you on this. I agree with Mike.So we get into the discussion on spiritual reality.

Well, have you considered that it was not anything to do with how horrible the death was, that relates to forgivness of sins?Christianity is not an accounting table. It's not weighing Christ's suffering on one scale and the sins of the world on the other. It is not a balancing act. Instead, it is a gift freely given.As to Evil and Satan, I will atleast try to show you how I see the difference.Hitler was Evil, but as you pointed out in the OP, it was a very normal human evil, even if on a grand scale. It was not a sign of Satan's influence. Just pure meanness.On the other hand, Ron Wyatt, Ken Hovind, Jerry Falwell, Gene Scott, Jim Bakker, Pat Robertson and such are IMHO definite signs of the influence and existence of Satan. The EVIL here is that Satan gets people to ignore GOD's word, to pervert the Bible, to hate others and inflame those very human insticts for doing evil. I do not see anyway you can account for the perversions of people like the above without the direct influence of Satan.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar Yes jar I understand this.What puzzles me is if we assume this to be the case what then is the need of christ dying on the cross and suffering in the first place? Why not simply have him live out his life performing miracles or simply vanish into the mists of time?Why is suffering on the part of christ considered necessary to have us accept a gift that is freely given? Violence like that is hardly,in my view, what I would consider something worth following since by dint of the biblical God's hand he found it necessary to cause suffering.I will not follow a biblical God{assuming I believed in God} for the very reason that he strikes me as not being very stable emotionally. I must protest{and certainlynot in defense of these peoples actions} because they are powerless in the equation of what you term EVIL without those people who follow them as mindless drones,questioning nothing as point of course. It is this very human action that leads to the atrocities of Waco or Heaven's Gate or Jonestown.I find no more evil with Gene or Jerry or Jim than I do with hucksters at a spring fair.If I get taken in the act is symbiotic not one sided.I am appalled less at their disgusting lack of integrity than I am at the people who swallow it whole as a matter of course.We might also mention that the notion of providing a service and being well recompensed for it whether you earn it or not is symptomatic of the capitalist system and unfortunately allows for the same system to be implemented in any service whatsoever. Such is the reason behind the phrase "Buyer beware".

I'm old and very forgetful so if I'm repeating myself, then forgive me. I believe we must look at this from the perceptions and environment of the good folk two thousand years ago. A large part of the Christian message revolves around the resurection. No death, no resurection. But why a violent death? Well, in the society of two thousand years ago, the concept of sacrifice was very real. People were punished for their sins. Death as a punishment for what we might see as trivial offenses or even simple disagreement were the norm.The story then is of someone who commits a major, perhaps in the eyes of many the most major sin, attacking the existing religous system. Jesus attacks directly the existing priestly structure. He said "Wait, you can have a direct relationship with GOD and are not limited to living under the rule of some priestly hierarchy". The system sanctioned him forcefully, by killing him. Three days later he rose again and proved them wrong.The violence was related to the system. It did not disappear then, and has not gone away even today. The violence was not the message, but only a symptom of the problem.I do not believe that the violence was of GOD's hand, nor do I believe GOD causes suffering or violence.On to my second point, the reason I selected those particular people (and I agree that Jim Jones and Vernon Howell{aka David Koresh} are also great examples) is their charisma. Satan cannot be effective if he appears bad or evil. And these people have all of the characteristics one associates with EVIL. They look fair and act foul. In them, Satan is at his strongest. He works through them to blind the followers. Satan is very good at what he does. He is persusive, a tempter and beyond the strength of many to resist.IMHO, Satan does not simply want to kill, hurt or maim individuals physically, though I'm sure he takes pleasure in that as well, but rather to pervert the teachings of religion. You can see that directly in Gene Scott's rantings as reflected in the thread "What GOD thinks of Fundamentalists".

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Its been a while since I've been on this board... I'm sure he suffered everytime his foot stepped on a thorn, or was emotionally hurt when people rejected him. He was definitely moved when he came upon Lazurus's grave. It wouldn't be a strech to say that he suffered every other way a human living at that time suffered. I do not believe that evil is a weapon to be wielded. No logical rational being commits evil just for the hell of it (pun intended). Evil is a perversion of a good. In and of itself, it is nothing. It can't exist without a good to pervert or twist. For example, behind almost every evil deed is the quest for pleasure of some sort. Pleasure in and of itself isn't a bad thing. It becomes bad when it is perverted into something else.

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"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

jar Well,He must as this verse indicates.I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." Isaiah 45:7If He creates evil then the actions taken by humans are a direct result of this. If the evil is the handiwork of god then the violence is related to him and he is the problem. No this makes even less sense.How then do you resolve this issue? If god is the one who sets up the condition for evil that we might choose our path to take then he is culpable in the violence as well as those who commit the physical acts.If he creates evil then suffering of all forms are a direct result of the choices he makes when he places these conditions down.
Either way I would not participate in the worship of a god who is not emotionally stable. I mean do we really want a deity about who has less control than a 4 year old?
What about free will? If he creates evil then we do not have a choice in the actions because they are obviously decided for us.What would be the state of men if there were no evil in the world? Satan tempts but god implements.This message has been edited by sidelined, 09-06-2004 09:54 AM

I am not a literalist. I believe that much of the Bible was self-serving attempts by the leaders to secure their status and about as reliable as campaign speeches today. In addition, ALL of the Bible was written within the knowledge base and perceptions of the time. Many things that we now understand were mysteries back then and so attributed to the supernatural. Lightning, earthquakes, desease, misfortune, plagues, weather, and yes, evil and good were all assigned to the supernatural.IMHO, there are two possibilities. Read the Bible with the knowledge and wisdom GOD has given us all, including what we have learned through the scientific method over the last 200 years or so; and read the record that he left us directly, the universe that we live in. Neither of those support the concept that GOD created evil.But please also understand, I am not suggesting that you should believe in GOD or Jesus. Your beliefs are your own. I can only try to explain my belief system and freely admit that it is but a personal relationship between a couple friends, me and GOD.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jar I have no problem with your beliefs however I do not see what the point is that the bible draws between christ's suffering and the way in which it eliminates sin.For sake of arguement. I am a child molesterer and have spent the past 45 years having my way with kids as young as 3 years old. I am caught by the authorities in my 60's. In the course of my incarceration I find god through jesus christ and I am forgiven of my sins. Let us say for sake of arguement that a dozen or so of those same kids I ravaged grow up to be molesterers themselves yet they do not get saved what is it about christ dying on a cross that makes all the evil I perpetrated both personally and through those I damaged who subsequently go on to do their own damage ok in god's eyes? What is it about those whom I molested who did not find christ that makes them spend time in hell for those sins I perpetrated upon them? Or do you believe that those who commit such heinous crimes are completely in the situation they find themselves in of their own accord and that my actions upon them do not matter.Would you not think that a loving god would correct those damages after the fact that such a thing not be commited again? After all if a man is forgiven of that sin should not the works of that sin be expunged?

I've said before, acknowledging Jesus is not a get out of jail card.There are two commandments, love GOD and love others as you love yourself.Loving god is best covered in a quotation from Matthew I've used here in the past. Using that as a guide, I say it is very unlikely that the person you describe would recieve much sympathy from GOD, regardless of professions of faith. But it would be a judgement. His actions before and after conversion would be weighed. How GOD would decide or WHAT GOD would decide, I don't know.edited to add requisite spelling errors.This message has been edited by jar, 09-06-2004 11:22 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

jarI hope I am not raising your ire with these questions. I,being an atheiest, am not asking out of a need to convince myself of things but merely to clarify what it is that you profess because to be honest you are one of the more interesting of the people who claim to a christian life that I have met here or anywhere else for that matter.LOL and may I say to you that this little ditty should become your new signature because I find it priceless. Perhaps this is why I never joined in the christian faith as I suck at Monopoly.Hard to believe in a God when you always end up with Meditteranean and Baltic avenue.Anyway I do wish to clarify your point here. It has been my impression{wrongly perhaps?} that in talking to christians over the years that once you truly take christ into your heart all records of the transgressions in your life are erased and never brought to the fore again.But then what would it matter since I would assume that the lower decks of heaven must surely be a sweeter view than the penthouse of hell.LOL

There are many that profess to be Christians that believe that. They usually base their convictions on acts of forgiveness by Jesus, the "Go and sin no more" syndrome. And for most of the examples given in the Bible, I would agree with what Jesus did. For example, a prostitute approaches Jesus and is forgiven. Yup. Jesus was a reasonable, rational individual and the custom of the time of stoning such a transgressor was silly and totally out of proportion.Of course he forgave her and I bet he even winked when he told her to sin no more. He might even have gotten her phone number at the time.Christianity, as taught by Jesus, is a religion of love. It really is as simple as that.Love GOD, love others as you love yourself.Do not forget the last part. Love yourself.It doesn't say profess, it deals with actions. Just do it. You don't have to profess, you don't have to testify, you don't have to evangelize. Just do it.It is inclusive. It covers the atheist, the agnostic, the muslim, the jew, the hindu, the buddhist, the baptist, the presbyterian, the catholic, the lutheran, the satanist, the episcopalian, the methodist, everybody. If they live the life, if they do unto others as they would have others do unto them, they are in.Just do it.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion