Is Islam the source of terrorism?

Buzsaw writes:

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Not so with my quotes from the Quran. They apply to the here and now, as demonstrated by the most devout Muslims who are willing to pay the price and as appied to the bussed in terrorists in the Nigerian riots.

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Buz, what about the century-long reign of terror that white Christian racists, including the Klu Klux Klan, inflicted upon the South?Even before that, the Bible was used as justification for the owning of human beings as slaves in our country.What about the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the murders of gynocologists, Eric Rudolph (a member of a nutso Christian group and the Olympic Park Bomber who hid out in the NC woods for years), etc.The Bible was used as justification to terrorize and murder untold numbers of people over the centuries. Most of the current right-wing extremist groups in the US identify, some quite strongly, as Christian groups.You just seem to be utterly and completely blind to this reality in your own religion while seeing nothing but the equivalent side to Islam.

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You just seem to be utterly and completely blind to this reality in your own religion while seeing nothing but the equivalent side to Islam.

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Schraf, you just don't get it, no matter how many times I've explained that my my religion is fundamentalist Biblical Christianity. Do you know what that means? It means that the fundamentals of the Bible are the doctrines of my religion. Please document as to any Biblical text allowing Christians to do violence to anyone. Your cited organizations ARE NOT BUZ'S RELIGIONS. Poleeeeze assimilate that fact before posting false implications that buz's religion sanctions violence.That is not to say government wars which governments are responsible for are never legitimate. That's a totally different matter. None of the violence you have mentioned is sanctioned by the Bible. Those organizations which have perpetrated this violence have done so contrary to Biblical mandate which only mandated violence by specific nations at specific times in history by Jehovah. And interestingly some of this was mandated upon pagan nations to punish God's own people, Israel, such as was the case with Nebuchadnezzar and others. This violence was sanctioned by God for the sole purpose of maneuvering nations of planet earth to fulfill his ultimate plan and purpose for the planet called earth in his own universe. If Jehovah be the true god, this would indeed be his perrogative.Now haveing said the above, Muhammed claimed over 1300 years ago that his god, Allah has mandated the total conquest of the total planet by Islam. What are the nations to do? Believe him or retaliate? If his prophetic aspirations are true and if Allah is indeed the only true god, he will succeed all the way through Armageddon , for that's where, according to Biblical prophecy this will lead. Yes, Muhammed prophesies (contrary to Biblical prophecy) that Jesus will return for only a few weeks to preach Islam and Islam will prevail under Allah with Israel and the rest of the world eventually coming nder Islamic rule. According to the Bible it ainta gona happen.Islam will indeed come close to fulfilling Muhammed's dream, imo, but Islam's Waterloo will come when Islam, with the aid and blessings of Russia besiege Jerusalem at Armageddon.[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-18-2003]

He did not say that Islam would conquer the entire planet through violent conflict against nonbelievers. But for kicks lets say he did.What does your religion teach? That the entire world will be saved through armagedon. Your religion states that every nonbeliever will be killed, including all Jews who do not convert in those final days.Many following this belief system (maybe you, I don't know) look forward to this ultimate destruction. In fact some want to bring it about by antagonizing the Islamic world into the very scenario you seem to be chuckling at (ala stupid muslims fulfilling Xtian Biblical prophecy in their mistaken quest for world dominance).monotheism sure is an inspiring icon of world peace... once everyone else is dead.------------------
holmes[This message has been edited by holmes, 10-19-2003]

kind of like the mighty krickets

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Schraf, you just don't get it, no matter how many times I've explained that my my religion is fundamentalist Biblical Christianity. Do you know what that means? It means that the fundamentals of the Bible are the doctrines of my religion. Please document as to any Biblical text allowing Christians to do violence to anyone.

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2 Chron 15:13
That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.That is just the most direct Biblical directive I could find in a few minute's search.

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Your cited organizations ARE NOT BUZ'S RELIGIONS. Poleeeeze assimilate that fact before posting false implications that buz's religion sanctions violence.

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The point is, Buz, that most Muslims say the EXACT SAME THING about the Islamic terrorists.According to most Muslims, the Islamic terrorists have MISUSED and MISINTERPRETED the Quran, just as you say that the KKK and others you reject as Christians have misused the Bible.It works both ways, Buz, and we simply happen to be in a time when the Islamic folks are doing some killing, instead of in a time when the Christian folks are doing the killing.Both religions have done plenty of killing in the name of their God and Bible.

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That is not to say government wars which governments are responsible for are never legitimate. That's a totally different matter. None of the violence you have mentioned is sanctioned by the Bible.

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Likewise, if you talk to mainstream Muslims, none of the violence done by Islamic terrorists is sanctioned by the Quran.

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Those organizations which have perpetrated this violence have done so contrary to Biblical mandate which only mandated violence by specific nations at specific times in history by Jehovah.

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So, mass slaughter and genocide is OK with God sometimes?So, was slavery and the owning of women as chattel also OK with God?

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And interestingly some of this was mandated upon pagan nations to punish God's own people, Israel, such as was the case with Nebuchadnezzar and others. This violence was sanctioned by God for the sole purpose of maneuvering nations of planet earth to fulfill his ultimate plan and purpose for the planet called earth in his own universe. If Jehovah be the true god, this would indeed be his perrogative.

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Wow, you DO believe in God-sanctioned genocide.If you think it was good and moral and God-sanctioned to commit genocide and mass-killings back then, then why is it so difficult for you to understand how some people mich think it's OK to do the same now?Maybe they are following yet another one of God's directives to kill.

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Now haveing said the above, Muhammed claimed over 1300 years ago that his god, Allah has mandated the total conquest of the total planet by Islam.

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Cite, please.I am quite sure that this is an extremist view held by very few Muslims around the world.

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What does your religion teach? That the entire world will be saved through armagedon. Your religion states that every nonbeliever will be killed, including all Jews who do not convert in those final days.

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1. Where have I ever said or where does the Bible teach that the world will be saved through Armageddon or that every nonbeliever will be killed including Jews? The invading armies will be destroyed at the scene, which does involve a great company. Many will be killed. The bowls of God's wrath will be poured out upon earth in which great numbers will be killed, but no, every nonbeliever will not be killed. There will be tribulation against the saints of God (true Christians) in which the beast, i.e. world power "makes war" with them/us and most Christians will be killed. So this is a big time global crisis where tha forces of evil war against the forces of God. We all know that in wars, things get broken and lives are lost. This is a time when the showdown of all ages arrives between God and Satan here on earth. As Isaiah puts it, "few men will be left upon earth," but it takes two sides to make war. You're trying to blame it all on God when it's the illigitimate forces of evil who are trying to dominate the world today. True Christians are killing nobody as our Christ taught us. If God Jehovah be the true god, he will win and Jesus will become world ruler as prophesied. If Islam's Allah is the true god and Muhammed his true prophet, he will win. If the Bible is false none of this will happen, but everything is on tract for fulfillment. Wake up and smell the coffee, folks!!

Buzsaw Old man How about a few examples of where the bible has made the so-called predictions that have come true and since,by your admission,these are also about future events let us hear of one that is not ambiguous and will occur within a reasonable amount of time.PUOSU[This message has been edited by sidelined, 10-20-2003]

Sideline your question/challenge would require a new thread and I don't know if I can spread myself that thin with the time I have to offer. It's a very interesting subject as so very much is happening relevant to the prophecies such as one world monetary system via numbers and marks rather than old fashioned gold and silver, one world government of all "peoples tribes, nations and tongues," world travel, knowledge explosion, a world wide speaking image phenomenon, i.e TV, weather patterns, etc, etc.

Apologies for this if you are already preparing a response... I have deleted this message because it was not concrete enough in its response to your post.I will have a better post with actual points for you to address, later today.------------------
holmes[This message has been edited by holmes, 10-20-2003]

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2 Chron 15:13
That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

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That is just the most direct Biblical directive I could find in a few minute's search.

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Schraf, you're being sooooo hard to dialogue or make sense with. Poleeeze read carefully my statement which you are suppose to be responding to:Buz statement:

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Please document as to any Biblical text allowing Christians to do violence to anyone.

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If you read the context of the II Chronicles quote, you will discover there was an oath/decree made by a specific king of Judah in regard to his own specific people who were suppose to be a special nation of God's people dedicated to the true god, Jehovah. This was a decision of the specific leaders of this specific nation. Now, if you read all of my statements, isn't that exactly what I said? You know full well that this has nothing to do with Christians or anyone else except these who came under this particular oath and decree, APPLYING TO THEMSELVES ALONE.

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The point is, Buz, that most Muslims say the EXACT SAME THING about the Islamic terrorists.

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According to most Muslims, the Islamic terrorists have MISUSED and MISINTERPRETED the Quran, just as you say that the KKK and others you reject as Christians have misused the Bible.

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But please rearead my statement that unlike with Jesus and Christianity, Muhammed himself both killed and advocated his followers to kill those who renounced Islam and who were infidels. Saddam Hussein and Benladden both follow the fundamentals of the Quran and the example of their prophet Muhammed, as do the Islamic suicide martyrs. After all, in Islam this is the only way one can be ASSURED direct entrance into heaven, isn't it?Please understand that most Muslims are not as devout and as dedicated as the fundies of the Quran and the prophet were/are. Fundies of the Bible, on the other hand are the least violent and the closest to Jesus, his example and his doctrines which he taught.

Saddam Hussein followed the fundamentals of the Quran? That's a laugh! Saddam's actions on many fronts were widely considered blasphemous, between his drinking, womanizing, attacks on religious leaders, and many, many other things. He even had a quran made out of his own blood, an act that was widely treated as an ultimate affront to God.

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But please rearead my statement that unlike with Jesus and Christianity, Muhammed himself both killed and advocated his followers to kill those who renounced Islam and who were infidels.

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Actually, Mohammed was a peacemaker in most of the Quran, when he could no longer keep the peace, he took up a sword, but still tried to teach forgiveness. Islam does teach that in the end, the world will be an entirely Islamic one, but it doesn't advocate reaching that through force.

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After all, in Islam this is the only way one can be ASSURED direct entrance into heaven, isn't it?

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Nope. In fact, even non-Muslims are to be given a chance after they die to repend and accept Allah. That's far nicer than Christianity on this front.

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Fundies of the Bible, on the other hand are the least violent and the closest to Jesus, his example and his doctrines which he taught.

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So, was it just a misperception that it was the religious right pushing the Iraq war?------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."[This message has been edited by Rei, 10-20-2003]

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Sideline your question/challenge would require a new thread and I don't know if I can spread myself that thin with the time I have to offer. It's a very interesting subject as so very much is happening relevant to the prophecies such as one world monetary system via numbers and marks rather than old fashioned gold and silver, one world government of all "peoples tribes, nations and tongues," world travel, knowledge explosion, a world wide speaking image phenomenon, i.e TV, weather patterns, etc, etc.

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Buz, I have asked you at least 3 or 4 times to pick some specific, unambiguous prophecies from the Bible and explain how they are coming true, or have already come true, but you thus far have declined to provide.The truth is, I very much doubt your so-called "fulfilled prophecies" would stand up to rational inquiry. I think you may know this, deep down, which is why you have thus far not been willing to put your money where your mouth is.Since your entire faith seems to be based upon the inerrancy of the Bible (which is a funny thing to have faith in, instead of God) seems to rest on these fulfilled prophecies, why not start a new thread discussing a single, unambiguous prophecy which you consider to have been fulfilled?[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-20-2003]

Your entire post was so disengenuous my first response was rather knee-jerk. This was not good. Here is a more crafted response. While I granted (including in the post you are responding to) that YOU might not hold these beliefs, it is less than intellectually honest to act as if many other Xtians do not.What is currently understood as fundamentalist Xtianity is evangelicalism. The majority of evangelicals hold that there is an Armageddon which leads to the final salvation of mankind through Christ's second coming which establishes God's kingdom on earth.If you dispute this, or believe this does not exist in the Bible, I would like you to please explain what Armageddon is, where we can find this nonapocalyptic apocalypse described in the Bible.There are many Xtians that do not believe this is a necessary or "true" aspect of Xtian doctrine, but they are NOT fundamentalists.I suppose that it could be you are arguing that the SAVING is not through the destruction of everyone else. That is a very tortured game of semantics. Even more stretched is your argument that Xtian and Gods' hands are somehow clean from the charge of "killing" because many deaths will be incidental (I'm assuming you are suggesting collateral damage?).You know what I am getting at. If God's saving Xtians is predicated on the destruction of everyone else (by whoever's hands), my point regarding Pax Xtiania remains.Please explain what is supposed to happen to these groups of people in the end times, if they do not except Jesus:
1)inuits
2)aboriginals
3)native americans living on reservations in canada
4)african bushmen
5)peoples of the south american rain forest
6)mongolian steppe nomadsThere is no conceivable way they are, or could be, involved in some global conflict all at once. But Armaggedon and the rapture are singular events. It will be God's wrath which will destroy these people who are almost all peace-loving and unable to "war" on anyone (much less get caught up in such wartime alliances). This is so fallacious I am at a loss where to start.First of all if God created the world and its history, how do I as an outsider not get to blame God for creating, much less allowing to grow, illegitimate forces of evil?But that is theoretical...Please name which illegitimate forces of evil have grown in power and threaten the world? What was that? Did you say the USA? I sure hope you did.The United States is the ONLY superpower left in the world. While other nations may threaten their neighbors, not ONE or ANY GROUP pose a military threat to the United States. China may very well within the next few decades, but not now.The only thing the US is facing is terrorism. These are singular acts by small (though international) organizations which only threaten to disrupt normal functioning and/or cause great loss of life in a temporary setting. As has been mentioned, terrorism has been conducted on behalf of Jesus and the Xtian God, just as much as Allah (if you want to envision this as a separate entity).Nothing is building to some climax where the world is at war... unless we make it so.And at this point it is the XTIAN and JEWISH extremists who are killing more people in the name of their God than anyone else on the planet. You do understand Bush uses Xtian terminology to portray his battles in Afghanistan and Iraq? You do understand fundamentalist Xtian organizations are stating outright that this "war on terror" is actually a religious conflict? A general and an entire unit in Iraq have said the same thing (and these are Xtians who are DIRECTLY killing people).We killed more innocent people in Iraq alone, than were lost in 9-11 and if I'm not wrong every other Islam related terrorist incident on US soil combined. Bush's doctrine is that it is better to kill their innocents first, if it improves the chances that our innocents won't be killed later.That is from a Xtian. You can dismiss him as not a real Xtian but that is just as valid as the Islamic world dismissing BinLaden.According to your definition... True Xtians don't kill anybody... the ONLY true Xtian denominations would be the Amish and maybe the Unitarians.While I would love to think you were Amish (or unitarian) and that Bush and BinLaden were equal leaders of the "growing forces of evil", your comments regarding Islam give me little hope that this is the case.The Xtian leading this country considers himself a true Xtian, as does his archbishop Ashcroft, as do the leaders of his political powerbase who call themselves the True Xtians. And they all speak a lot like you.Tell me where I am wrong. Of course it is when everytime fundamentalist Xtian, Jewish, and Islamic leaders get in power they make every stride in the direction of their horrific world view.First of all they always see the ascendance of any other belief system as "illegitimate forces of evil" who they cannot possibly coexist with.Witness the current drive to the hoop by evangelicals to mandate Xtianity the basis of this nation and its laws (thereby disinheriting all other belief systems). Witness the war on porn and the war on drugs and the war on any kind of pleasure Xtians dislike (legislating that pleasures of the flesh are sinful, and nonbelievers as criminals). Witness our history of avoiding ALL practical solutions to the Israeli-Palestinian situation which does not help fulfill Biblical prophecy (those are written right off).In fact the whole Israeli situation is a construct of our leaders wanting to create Biblical prophecy.If there is a great tragedy in that region, it will be the result of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Israel wouldn't even exist today, except that ultra-orthodox Jews and Xtians decided that the Jews needed their own state and it had to be where God said it would be... despite the FACT that it would disrupt and disempower many nonJews (specifically people generally intolerant of judaism) and so generate conflict.Brilliant.Then we blame the disempowered and the disinherited for doing what most such people do to their oppressors (this does not include Al-Queda which is a manifestation of another ignorant move by western powers).Remember the list of people's above? Let me know who you think they will end up recruited into the forces of evil. Or is it that their very being is what makes them evil and so an affront to God.Last time I checked the renewed debate on Evolution is itself part of a "culture war" started by Xtians... supposedly true Xtians. How long until scientists must comply or end up in jail, just like the hedonists? And even if some pacifist athiest decides not to fight... your God will kill him, right?In a reply to schraf you stated that the fundamentalists of Islam will be violent, while the fundamentalists of Xtianity cannot be. This is simply not the case in reality.While I grant you that the teachings of Jesus are generally love related, and those of Mohammed address conflict, that means nothing about how one is supposed to practice those teachings in one's life. It is also to ignore that the Apostles (who also have their teachings in the Bible) and leaders of Xtian denominations have a lot to say in how Xtianity is practiced by its adherents.After all, how many Xtians believe that one "turns the other cheek" no matter what? There are always references to other Biblical passages and figures to legitimate a fight. In fact, if Xtians kept "turning the cheek" we not only wouldn't have Israel, we wouldn't have anyone to fight a war of armaggedon, would we?------------------
holmes[This message has been edited by holmes, 10-20-2003]

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If you read the context of the II Chronicles quote, you will discover there was an oath/decree made by a specific king of Judah in regard to his own specific people who were suppose to be a special nation of God's people dedicated to the true god, Jehovah. This was a decision of the specific leaders of this specific nation. Now, if you read all of my statements, isn't that exactly what I said? You know full well that this has nothing to do with Christians or anyone else except these who came under this particular oath and decree, APPLYING TO THEMSELVES ALONE.

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Like I said, considering that your God has easily and frequently commanded genocide and mass slaughter in the past, why is it so difficult for you to accept that many Christians over the centuries have used these many instances of God-commanded and sanctioned acts of violence in the Bible as justifications for their own?The point I'd like you to actually discuss is your refusal to even acknowledge that just as much violence and murder has been perpetrated in the name of YOUR god and YOUR holy book as Allah and the Quran.

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But please rearead my statement that unlike with Jesus and Christianity, Muhammed himself both killed and advocated his followers to kill those who renounced Islam and who were infidels.

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So what? The Bible still has God advocating all kinds of bloody, cruel, awful evil activity, including slavery and the owning of women as chattel.Do you advocate genocide, slavery, or the owning of women as chattel as long as it is or was God sanctioned and Biblically justified?Please answer the question this time.

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Saddam Hussein and Benladden both follow the fundamentals of the Quran and the example of their prophet Muhammed, as do the Islamic suicide martyrs.

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You are so wrong!Saddam Hussein was a secular military dictator. Bin Laden and the Taliban hated Hussein because of his secularism.Major Muslim scholars and clerics from around the world have always denounced Bin Laden and the Taliban.

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Please understand that most Muslims are not as devout and as dedicated as the fundies of the Quran and the prophet were/are.

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So nice of you to speak for all Muslims WRT their religious devotion and dedication.somehow, you twist the good thing of not being violent into a bad thing of not bing dedicated or devout!God, you are SO arrogant and insulting and bigoted. It's really starting to sicken me.

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Fundies of the Bible, on the other hand are the least violent and the closest to Jesus, his example and his doctrines which he taught.

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"Peaceful, kind, and loving" don't exactly come to mind as character traits I have ever experienced in any fundamentalist Christian.I tend to notice traits such as "self-righteous, judgemental, and intolerant" as more commonly found in Fundies.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-20-2003]

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despite the FACT that it would disrupt and disempower many nonJews (specifically people generally intolerant of judaism) and so generate conflict.

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I just had to take issue with this particular point. The Jewish people have long existed in the middle east in relative peace. The biggest change was not necessarily zionism and the terrorist acts and land siezures by the early Israeli settlers, but was the anti-Jewish sentiment stirred up by the British in Iraq (where Jews had lived for literally thousands of years - and where, due to our idiotic war, their long-standing Christians may soon have the same fate). Jews in Iraq had often held the most prestegious jobs - goldsmiths, merchants, government jobs, etc, and lived side by side with their Muslim neighbors. In 1941, Basra had a Jewish population of 30,000. However, whether intentional or accidental, the Jewish community began being seen as being supportive of the British regent, and the conflict quickly turned from "Iraqis (sic) vs. the British" to "Muslims vs. the British and Jews". Much of the islamic world was already mad at the British for their broken promises in WWI, and in Iraq they had been especially nasty.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."