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Author Topic:   Water under the Bridge
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001

Message 1 of 10 (63078)
10-27-2003 10:20 PM

Randy has drug me throughout NY and back and still is not satisfied therefore I WILL CONCLUDE- If rANDY and any one yous all want to join him with want to discuss biogeography and THE FLOOD I will only continue if or when I get intelligence as the ACTUALLY SIGNIFICANT size of OZO LAKE (which I have slighted Croizat, reading it as "ovo" AGAINST SJGOULDman). I will keep this open to prevent others from asserting with whatever Randy wants or desires to hold against me personally, he and anyone else is, of course free to do so personally (see Rhain on email etc). This lake was reported by ARABS at the terminus or end of LOWWA or ROWWA river and terminates my estimate so far as Galelio etc of the difference of any local or global flood. So instead I leave the conclusion with a little ditti from a friend of my Grandmother, collegue of my Grandfather and both undergraudate and graduate of Cornell University on Hester, Hippie Hippopotamus


disclaimer- hester is a hippo (and editor wrote "In order to get to Kindu and Kassongo, the pieces would have had to float back UP Stanley Falls. But I suppose we must allow some poetic license.") not the guy that recently went over Niagra! No permit is needed to respond to me. If anyone thinks they can find a double negative contradiction in what I wrote feel free to follow up this river instead (LULU or LURU river) (ill take that if the water ovo becomes ozo sized!el!)? (POETRY from The Nature of Nature from Alpha to Zeta by Albert Ezra Fitzwarren (Benton's pen name) Hester had two eyes not three%

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-10-2004 8:44 PM Brad McFall has responded

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1986 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003

Message 2 of 10 (107244)
05-10-2004 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brad McFall
10-27-2003 10:20 PM


Of what use is anything that you write if it cannot be understood by ordinary persons ?

Do you provide acid with your posts ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brad McFall, posted 10-27-2003 10:20 PM Brad McFall has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Brad McFall, posted 05-11-2004 10:30 AM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001

Message 3 of 10 (107421)
05-11-2004 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Cold Foreign Object
05-10-2004 8:44 PM

On the use of electrotonics to construct...
On the use of electrotonics to construct
a device to extract energy
during biological form-making
from functioning structure
obeying Gladyshev's LAW
in principle
ABSTRACT- There are both applications from the priniciple of substance stability to a given structural hierarchy of inorganic material and conceptually stability of biomass structures whether by molecular or supramolecular levels of organization ( Theor Biol No.1, 2002,pp5-9 ). So, while conceptually there is support for action of the laws of thermodynamics in each local volume of supramolecular structures, and in the final analysis, in any (according to size) macro-volume biological mass it is yet but only conceptually possible to regard an organism's tissues as systems containing a multitude of micro-chromatographic columns. Part of the difficulty (in bridgeing the gap between inorganic and organic obediance to the natural law in any, every, or al temporal hierarchies) lies in the need for rigorous substantiation across numerous levels of organization no matter any TEMPORAL difference in artificial and natural selection per biological change (on any level of organization). Therefore while Gibbs'(G), Helmholtz'(F), and enthalpy(H) ( Theor Biol op.cit. citations of Sychev,1986;Gladyshev, 1996; Gladyshev and Kurnakova, 1988 ) maybe used funtionalities of any rappraochment becuase it is impossible to determine the absolute value(s) of functions of state these functions are presently only available for qualitative and semiquantitatve investigations (other cite? ). The present patently invaluable work seeks to reintroduce Maxwellian electrotonics as a means to extract designedly biomass stability of lower level activities by converting to electro-magnetic properties energy obeyong the empirical principle of substance stability across levels of magnitude with a law(like) series first manifested by self-reproduction. The longer the time the change has remained stable (in accordance with Mendel's ratio/law) the more likely more energy extraction may be possible via engineered structural subtance stability of structural hierarchies in inorganic matter. A new class of biomass powered electrotonics are proposed by disciplined use of the electrotonic symbols per measure in non-imaginary cases. It is furthermore suggested that discontinuity systematics look into baramin logic as a potential source of further possible work in process not engineered by the electrotonic direction, magnitude and force.

The Short Version


The gain in understanding of any temporal sequence with being "thrown" into the electrotonic state is that it could provide a boundary where nonstationary and stationary systrems may interact and processess of microelctronics might 'flag' changes in relative transversal of spontaneous and nonspontaneous processing of the system closed under an electrotonic whole - matching the eletromagnetic kinematic and the molecular biological one is the project of this use case report where I, BSM, entered in Providence RI 1993-4? the trade name AEXION CLOCKS to mediate any transit that migh tbe so doable.
Meyer editor Questioning Derrida with his replies on philosophy "From grammetology to problematology"p3"Problematology is the answer to generalized problematicity. Instead of repressing it or seeing it as the own undoing of Western thought by itself, problematology takes questions seriously, for what they are. Its primary task may be seen negatively, if one wishes: if everything is hoplessly problematic, it becomes impossible to go beyond the realm of opinion, of competitive answers which represent only the perspectives of those who sustain them. But multiculturalism under the guise of philosophy is no philosophy at all: it is just the expression of different points of view, each as valuable as the other."

MAXWELL-(On Faraday's Lines of Force Dover edition p169)"1. Theory of the Motion of an incompressible Fluid. (1) The substance here treated of must not be assumed to posses any of the properties of ordinary fluids except those of freedom of motion and resistance to compression. It is not even a hypothetical fluid which is introduced to explain actual phenomena. It is merely a collection of imaginary properties which may be employed for establishing certain theorems in pure mathematics in a way more intelligible to many minds and more applicablej to physical problems tnan that in which algebraic symbols alone are used. The use of the word "Fluid" will not lead us into error, if we remember that it denotes a puerly imaginary suhstance with the following property: The portion of fluid which at any instant occupied a given volume, wuill at any succeeding instant occupy an equal volume. This law expresses the incompressibility of the fluid, and furnishes us with a convenient measure of its quantity, namely its volume. The unit of quantity of the fluid will there fore be the unit of volume."
GLADYSHEV"It is possible to regard an organism's tissues as containing a multitude of microchromatographic columns. Moreover, the nature of both the stationary and mobile phases of these columns differs substantially. At the same time, the natural effectiveness of such natural micro-columns must be extraordinarily high. When moving in the stream of the mobile phase...The fastest mover along the column is the component with the smallest K rating. If we investigate the action of the column using the length of the delay-time or retention time (the length of the time the substances in question remain in the column) t^im\/ret', then it is convenient to use the the well known correlation: t^im\/ret= Aexp(-deltaG^~^^__^im/RT), where A - coefficient which changes evenly during the evolution of composition in the stationary phase, for example, the biosystem(each micro-volume is characterized by its coefficient A),..."

In PIRKAM GG wrote" After the author of this paper had formulated the law of temporal hierarchies (he was first aware of iits existence in 1976-1977 (26)), it became obvious that the methods developed by Lagrange, Gibbs, and other classics can be applied to dynamically open living systems. Hierarchical equilibrium (quasi-equilibrium) thermodynamics or macrothermodynamics came into being, and it was shown that linear models with good approximation can be used to describe evolutionary processes and many transformations that occur at all hierarchical levels of living (as well as non-living) matter."

This work(biologically applied electrotonics)
uses this LINEARITY but adds for TIME what Genetics had for SPACE in the study of recombination (rule 3) "The recombination frequency is a function not of the markers themselves nor of the genes within which they lie but of the remoteness of the markers from each other on the genetic linkage map"
(Genetic Recombination Thinking About It in Phage and Fungi p )
. By an analgous role of a rule for TIME in the GG series ( ...<(which produced the mendel ratio)
is identified in the open or quasi closed system is indentified.

The work of this paper is to show how entropy INCREASE can substitute for the random assortment of genes in general but in particulars of the bioworld unifies the signs used in electrotonics and macrothermodynamics exchanging the denotation of the electrotonic connotation and the lexos of phenomenological thermodyanmics.
Lawlorp29"Fourth, there is the difference between phenomenological psychology and transcendental phenomenology. As Derrida notes, Husserl conceives a phenomenological psychology that would exactly "parallel" transcendental phenomenology. The structures described on one level would be the same as on the other. Yet there must be a difference here, which, following Husserl's characterization of the relation as one of parallelism, Derrida characterizes as "the nothing" and as "distance"; strictly, there is nothing but space between parallel lines (ED 245-246/164). As Derrida notes, it is this very "nothing" which permits the transcendental reduction. Made possible by the transcendental reduction, transcendental phenomenology is then able to describe structures that are no longer mundane. Through the transcendental reduction, the phenomologist proceeds to a level that is..."
Electrontonics enables integration of the chromosome particularity and this rule by role of the relation of supramolecular chemisty forming organelles via genes linearly on chrmosomes even if expressed in a non-linearly temporal reality. One should notice that non-Central Dogma information flow direction may be responsible for some of the structural integrity of cells.
It is possible that failure to incorporate Wright's shifting balance theory lies less in issues of higher levels (group selection) but ONLY in what remains to be linked between the chromosomeand thecell (im>>supra>>#chromosomes++organelle++cell++tissue++organ++organism(behavior<Maxwellp492 "accoring to our hypothesis, the magnetic medium is divided into cells, seperated by partitions formed of a straum of particles which play the part of electricity. When the electric particles are urged in any direction, they will, by their tangential action of the elastic substance of the cells, distort each cell, and call into play an equal and opposite force arising from the elasticity of the cells. When the force is removed, the cells will recover their form, and the electricity will return to its former position."
Because current drug discovery does not synthesize from spontenity in process the current scholarly directions in nanotechnology may be being mis summary judged. It is suggested that the flow responsible for the equilibrium (whether electotonically or any other function (G,H,F) be trapped by reverse genetic engineering of Faraday thermal contacts in currects that posses dynamicS electromagnetically independent of any provided by homeostatis or self-regulation whether by self-assembly or not afforded by lineages continuous under the reproductive connection. Issues of nervous system physiology are reserved for a non-practical paper. Regardless any material will be contstructed from a manifestation of different effects of 1-D symmetry to being with. It may be possible to syllogistically have approval of a sentence such as, "RNA has Uracil because microtubules concatenate Guanosine". The predicate and subject may be inverted here but the possiblity of deduction provided its plausibility seems certain. This does not "build" the bridge"" but only enables one to relate any parrallelism and orthogonality that may be evident due to natural selection not matching engineered artifical selection of any increase in lower level components ("deceleration of evolution") on particulars of the substances (organic and inorganic) included.

GladyshevTheor Biolp5. "For example, very "chemically" thermodynamically stables substances, such as N2, CO2, and H2O have comparatively low temperatures of melting and boiling,^1 which suggests qualitatively a relatively low thermodynamic stability of their condensed phases.
On the other hand, energy-intensive substances with a low molecular- "chemical" thermodynamic stability such as fats, sugars, peptides, and nucleic acids, melt at comparatively high temperatures and decompose during "melting" and "boiling". Aggregated (condensed) phases of these substances are very stable."
Maxwell-"The whole energy of rotation of the magnetized field would thus be greatly increased, as we know it to be; but the angular momentum of the iron particles would be opposite to that of the aethereal cells and immensly greater, so that the total angular momentum of the substance will be in the direction of rotation of the iron, or the reverse of that of the vorticies. Since, however, the angular momentum depends on the absolute size of the revolving portions of the substance, it may depend on the state of aggregation or chemical arrangment of the elements, as well as the ultimate nature of the components of the substance. Other phenomena in nature seem to lean to the conclusion that all substances are made up of a number of parts, finite in size, the particles composing these parts being themseleves capable of internal motion."(On physical lines of force Dover ed.p.508).

Congruence vs incidence are thus propositionally seperated by the patent claims of macrothermodynamics.

MBEALB2004p9"The formulation of the "principle of substance stability" gives the possiblity of explaining (unfortunately up to now only on a qualitative level) the reasons for the existence of the reverse thermodynamic connections between various hierarchies of the living matter. The possibility of the practically infinite development of the bioworld (on the time scale comparable with the time - the duration of biological evolution) may also be explained."

If >> 1-D symmetry effects odd number of hierarchical affects in a causal connection of electrotonic cell dimension and maximum chromosome size while ++ symmetry effects any even cardinality THEN a significant advance in macrothermodynamics exists in the study of chromosome # stability per cell or organelle surrounds and Maxwellian cellularity is found to exist the difference of branching
(chromosome # as a lower level stability on organisms survival temporality)
and avalanche-condenstation. Supramolecular relaity would be scaleable factually to the volume of homolgous chromosome pairs themselves when not higher per species. Diploidy would be the consequence of the Pascal Arithemetic Triangle where physical forces operate opposite to the 1-D symmetry contributions (Volta's claim against Galvani, Wolfram's claim against ~Gould, etc) inductively on DNA that constructs a given chromosome no matter the (other) organelles. Gould would have misattributed the Galton Polygon which simply expresses (then) an even or odd number of levels effected in macrothermodynamics. It would be requisite to study biological change where there are even changeibilityes suprmolecularly below the chromosome macrovolume but odd above it not the odd/even other way around!

This is not simply another heterchrony (reduced) as the engineering may be accomplished poly-phyletically and multiple orginated genetically coadaptations (not monophyletically only as Bruce Wallace introduced populationally) become conceivable no matter the original panmictic population diversification or splitting. I further suggest that the relation betwen apo baramins and polybaramins could contain MORE information than phenetics and cladistics applied because the Croizat Method is not drawn in in biology as of yet.

And defintions of Schmallhausen's disruptive selection will be called for as one investigates anyh material difference of ATP and GTP on the relation of macrokinetics to electrotonics in biological flesh via macrothermodynamically advanced formality.
Schmalhausenp4 Factors of Evolution 1949 "the transmission from generation to generation is an extremely regular process controlled by the principle of segregation discovered by Mendel. The phenomena of segregation demonstrate the discreetness of the mutational steps and the immisibility of the herited traits."
Accumulated negentropy associated with total cell size (despite"" overall increase in knowable entropy) may be an extraordinary repair (repose) of life to diplodiy on cell death where THE FUNCTION of the 1-D symmetry is inverted
(++ odd, >> even ( this may be due to purely physical(spontenous processes not subject to any adaptive oversight))
by chance, mutation and/or selection singly or combined but this may not necessarily exist. Nonetheless, there would be no sense in "smoothing" the Galton polygon as Gould had it inorder to dis Paley-Aggasiz. This was an issue of lack of equilibrium research NOT CREATIONIST bashing. There could be so more than just qualitative answers in macrothermodynamics if this view holds water.

A new economic sector becomes feasible should BASIC research on both ionic wandering and _____ be capitalized in pedagogic institutions leaving corporations R&D budgets to focus only on enthapy-heat flow gradient targeting of measures proprietary or no. Suggestions for investment might include (should the inhibition not be prohibited by the states): a) cell phone plant battery charger,b) pesky rodent migration by root embeded remote contolled functionality, c)human agricuture transformation to sustainablity by biomass producivity thru GPS locked water balance compared entering ecosystem engineering topography leveling disemination. De Vries' mutation and some account of varitaion might be reinscribed macothermodynamically and the shift from the more physiological understanding, principally the ecological layer of reasoning, seems possible provided Fisher's proposal fails in the synthesis of chance drift and Wrightian deme drift( together again) once the mutations are accounted for during either direction of migration possible on geodesics apporximated geographically are aligned geometrically.

Magnetatic bacteria-
James Clerck Maxwell wrote, "The numbr of unit lines*(Exp. Res. 3122). See Art. (6) of this paper.) of magnetic force due to a closed current depends on the form as well as the quantity of the current, but the number cells *(Art. (13)). in each complete line of force is measured simply by the number of unit current which embrace it. The unit cells in this case are portions of space in which unit of magnetic quantity is produced by unity of magnetizing force. The length of a cell is therefore inversely as the intensity of the magnetizing force and its section inversely as the quantity of magnetic induction at that point."(ON FARADAY'S LINES OF FORCE Dover edition p185).

Now find this strech in the macrothermodynamic of magnetatic bacteria.

The Maxwellian "cells" are all on ONE macrothermodynamic level or they are not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can a decrease in tension (Maxwell op cit p185 ) empirically assit in finding the dimensions of the physical AND biological cells of the transversal across an open to a quasi-closed boundary or the other way around? Can the relation to A NUMBER OF NEW cells "produced" due the principle of Gladyshev's law of lower level entity increase tend to reproduce in some cases of electric current opening a quasi-closed from open less tensioned prior compensated tendency??

Thus the application to magnetatic bacteris is requistitioned to determine if the electrotonic closure does not partition the spontaneous self-assembly for should it appear then the application of the principle of substance stability to structural hierarchies in organic matter might have this added to (THEOR BIOL) "Rigourous substantiation of the formulated principle is complicated since it is impossible to determine the absolute values of functions of state, such as Gibbs' function (G,G*), Helmhotz's function(F,F*) and Enthalpy(H,H*) of a simple or complex(*)" and the posibility of building a kinematic capable of impressing inorganic structural hierarchy on those of impressing inorganic structural heirarchies on those associated in biological form-making such as to DO WORK seems more than remotely in reach. The relation of the circular DNA form of bacteria to any perversions the magnetics might suggest may be a means to equilibrate any minimization across the magnetic phase transtion without using enthapy.

Maxwell-Doverp508 "As we do not know the distribution of density within the vortex, we shall determine the relation between the angular momentum and the energy of the vortex which was found in Prop. VI. (page 472-3Prop. VI. - To determine the acutal energy of a portion of a medium due to the motion of the vortices in it....Now let the magnetic system m1 remain at rest, and let m2 be moved parrallel to itself in the direction of x through a space dx...will be the same as before the change...)
Since the time of revolution is the same throughout the vortex, the mean angular velocity w will be uniform and =a/r, where a is the velocity at the circumference, and r the radius. Then...V being the volume and r the radius of the vortex."

Knowledge of the morphology of iron in bacteria (by EM?) is needed at this point in the work up.

Toad Skin Eating-
"My estimates draw attention to the fact that various areas of DNA (and of lipid structure) evolve at different rates. This indicates that the rate of inheritance of genetic characters is not the same either.....in the course of evolution)."

Starting with Guanoise as the least stable IN THE CONTENT of change in areas of DNA etc correlated with change in genetic characters physically bijective(I do not know which set is odd or even. It appears that tertiaries, quarternaries may be subject to affirmation by DIFFERENT LEVELS (photon vs electron) onto any Central Dogma information passage (some organisms have different relations of Protein-RNA-DNA no matter the endonucleases that may be in common)
)and proposing that Melanin is a converse Plank body (instead of witnessing what light is emitted from a 'dark oven' one has what light is not transmitted past the malanic area of 'skin', the tissue layers provided (provide they are reflexive and not merely refactive) "mirrors to keep keep frequencies of light angled where gene expression of tyrosin-melanin Locates a (flow) the minimization is suggested to accomplishemt via Guanosine motion from nucleus to cytoplasm via dynamic microtubules IN THE CONTEXT of GTP effects on the metabolism

Do toads eat their skin to assit in the creation of cell collectives that migrate from the apical ridge into guanocytes? Is not the food eaten by the tadpole the cause of the change in the relative location of these cells accomplished by cell death?? Could this occur by isolation by distance where the Wright curve is intersected with the catstrophe singularity (so that ecological effects can change celluar developement) such that thermal contact rotates an isoaltion by distnace by a group theory representation of a common space in a HIGER ORDER catastrophe set that deduces the Gibbs minimiation, the Wright curve and the particular singularity (of the guanocyte) all of which are in part explained Wright 1980. Is not Rene Thom's catastrophe set analyticity (no matter Collet's discrete view on information relative to biolgoical form) represent thermal contacts that occur by catastrophe sets that interesect, with, the curve as a showing at least a quasi-closed macrothermodynamcis system phenomeolgocally. FOr instanc ethe higher order catastrophe set indicates HOW the higher of the lower (need to know distribution of even and odd substitions/exchanges) in a GG sereis is changeble then the relation of this in terms of alleomorph sereis to any dominance (chromose level to organ level) might enable one to suggest artifical selection regimes currently unrecognizable.

Does not this occur through the molecules in the basment membranes of cell layers/tissues? Can not topobiology be "reduced" without necessarily invoking Darwin's wedge"" organics in a limited space (due to the branching instead of basement membrane molecules??).?

Maxwell-p509 "rop XIX- To determine the conditions of undulatory motion in a medium containing vortices, the vibrations being perpendicular to the direction of propagation."

GGTHEORBIOL"An illustrative example of the formulate principle is provided by selection of the sequence of nucleic acids including AU pairs in evolution, although these pairs are less stable from the standpoint of supramolecular thermodynamics then GC pairs.
Hence, the selection of natural (AUGC) sequences makes allowance for not only the stability of a lower molecular hierarchy, as wa sometimes previously believed, but alos of the stability of higher hierarchies, tertiarties, quaternaries, and the higherst supramolecular strucutres- nucleicacid- protein complexes(Gladyshev, 1996, 1997, 2001a)"

Maxwellp509"Now let us suppose vortices in the medium whose velocites are represented as usual by the symbols a,b,c, and let us suppose that the value of a is increasing at the rate da/dt, on account of the action of the tangential stresses alone, there being no electromotive force in the field . The angular momentum in the stratum whose area is unity, and thickness dz, is therefore increasing at the rate -1/4pie)urda/dt)dz; and if the part of the foce Y which produces this effect is Y' then the moment is -Y'dz, so that Y'=-(1/4pie)ur(da/dt). The complete value of Y when the vortices are in a state of varied motion is..."

This would be the branching affect on the avalanche-condenstion as expressed electrotonically or the cladistic representation of grade torque if valued on the higher indivdual levels than Croizat's cell cutting at least.

Lichen Symbiosis-

Given, that lichen fungi gain energy by extracting sugars from photobionts it seems affordable to potentially distinguish the trait thermodynamics of process and the trait thermodynamics of systems thru a starting definition of the whole lichen as a quasi-closed system( non-stationary where reaction products collect( in behavior of photobiont(s) incidences (# of photobionts, kind

Maxwellp594"in both cases the absolute direction of rotation is the same,whether the light passes from north to south or from south to north, - a fact which distinguishes this phenomenon from the rotation produced by quartz, turpentine, &c., in which the absolute direction of rotation is reversed when that of the light is reversed)."
etc)) to given fungi genetic

"Splatches by correction The concept of splatches has been central to our discussions. Indeed, the value of the splatch concept for thinking about the precise alignment of parental contributions to recombinants is overwhelming. Splatches are detected in crosses by detecting postmeotic segregation and if you are misguidedly sold on the ubiquity of mismatch correction, by detection of 6:2's as well. The splatches we drew in the molecular models of this chapter, were, in each case, composed of material as well as information derived from the two different parents. However, some of the spalatches observed as postmeiotic segregations may have a differnent origin and significane than we have assumed."p237 Genetic Recombination Thinking about it in phage and fungi.)
s) where different cases arise unlike levels of selection where the levels of organization coincidence the dynamics of processes and systems.

Thus though one can not assert the lichen as a living organism minimizing the Gibbs function proper (I propose a Maxwell reciprocal figuration instead (Dover edition p 514 "The kind of reciprocity which we have here to do with has reference to figures consisting of stright lines joining a system of points, and forming closed rectilinear figures; and it consists in the directions of all lines in the one figure haveing a constant relation to those of the lines in the other figure which correspond to them." )the following will investigate the practicality of considering (under the assumed preset ( ) hierarch of strucutres (function) the fungi maximize the photobionts minimzation not in terms ...but by adding water....

Ecology of ATP vs GTP metabolic behaviors-(mitchondria and the Amesien toxic origin and cell death)- THE ORGANELLE level of macrothermodynamics- Are vertebrate from invertebrate changes concomittant with increase in less stable affordances on l
on lower levels accumulating procaryote diversity in the same time?? Is not the grade assymetry IN VERTEBRATES but an expression of inverted cones of diversity decellerated by/in
Gladyshev's law?? Are HOX genes acceleartions from programmed cell death histories? Is not Waddington's genetic assimilation a matter here that might be associated with invertebrate BEHAVIOR which can by Baldwins effect manifest purely midline range change either to a central tendency or away from it but without the funtioning of directional selection? Could this be tested with symmetry breaking branching of caecilian scales where the morphology indicates the avalanche condenstion between the two counter twisting calcium morhpologies in the unitary scale and is not the posistion of poison below and mucus glands above this strucutre of significance to the total condensation but indpenendent of any BEVHORIAL manifestation of the glands' effect. Is this not wholly the pattern and nothing ecological is involved in the further effect of epistatis or pleitropy as to direction selection that may seperate the chemcial nature of amphinbains from the simple program of the genes?


BY thinking of adaptation ONLY in engineering terms of tolerance and allowance what is fitting is still an issue of the level of species but IS NOT as to any distributtion or station on Earth a matter of Creationism holding back Science but rather the inability of biologists to systematically understand adapations. The set up of Phil Johnson, SJ Gould and Will Provine and Niels Eldgreidge was a false grammetology that prohibited students becuase it could not locate the inhibition naturally that is a slow motion (decelleration) into an "ecosystem" rather than a religous absence of the void. The probelm was that Goulds forumulation oversteped (in the stair stp model) the Bruce Wallace case law of coadaptation as to any popultion effect. Will Provine simply did not think that an organisms "exquistie" adaptation might be coadapted by DIFFERENT GENETIC ORIGINS and thus substituted Darwin's notion anti-seperate creation for any inversion of tolerance and allowance that the combination of macrothermodynamics and electrotnics writes. Thus Gladsyhev was correct to note a DELUSION 14.10.2003(becasue of the psychological affects WHEN DISCUSSING organic behavior on the SOCIAL level of any groups' seperation whether by a larger allowance or a smaller tolerance (not smaller allowance and larger toerance!!)) but simply indicating that the Sun's energy is the naturalism able to ameleoriate this difference in language is not enough for I TOLD will that one needs to KNOW how the cell cuts (Croizat Principia Botantica) BEFORE one can be assured that common application of Boltzman's IDEAS does not indicate for instance I now say, requires NOT the compressibility of the collumn in a Boscovich LACK OF COMPENETRABILITY
It may. It is far from clear that Newton's "electric and elsastic spirit" MUST be electricity and electrotonics is not necessarily the last word on how the inorganic and organic temporal heiratchies can be combined further up in the hierarchy but it can be obvious that GOUld was mistaken to attempt to extend any hardening of adapation by syntheistis to a schoarly comparison of Paley and Aggasiz for Sociobiology is simply ONLY going to be depenednt on SEX not any algebraicism of the electrotonics in macro thermo dyanicsm as the statics are bettered. At some time in the future R&D of this new technological industry some one will try to use advanced math of group theory and at that time one wil be able to evaluate agriguclture moving into ecosystems and put the religous dispute into worship only. It is possible that this will only suicceed if Ruseel's denial of Cantor proof of higher real numbers with rational subtraction is ejected in the linear extension where the nervous system will be part of the re-engineering but that can not be the reason that psychiatry is given a bye
by universities that make decisions regarding thier students that seems like pshchiatric ones
in not neededing to account for its keeping MINDS from doing this work. So while ALL of the parts of the creation/evolution controversy will not be avoided with the growth of this economy the PARENTAL aspect of it will be found to be in a void apriori. Instead these scholars will be found to have failed to properly teach the various differnent defintions of Entropy because between the adaptatio of an individual and the population lies indeed the thought of the actual infinite. I do not say whether this higher level thought requires a change in Mendel historigoraphy or simply a potential change to the things Gould denied dimensionally to cross level effects but the education of this generation is clear, teach entropy as Maxwell suggested and perhaps Gladyshev's supramolecular cutting will be incident with how Croizat thought no matter the territory the adaptive landscape is ordinally projected in. But it is certainly better to begin here on Earth.
"The situation of operative conceptual, discursive, and pragmatic stability that emerges from these kinds of ongoing reciprocal coordination is what we often call, in relation to the practices of science, truth. In relation to activites of individual cognition or belief formation, the corresponding situation of operative stability is what we usually call knowledge.^27 And in relation to what can bee seen as cognition in its broadest sense - that is, an organism's self-maintaining coordination with the domain of its operations^28 - the corresponding situation is often called adaptation or biological fitness. Of course truth is commonly attributed not to sets of interactive practices but just to statements; knowledge is commonly seen not as the global state of an organic system but as a specifically mental state; and fitness is treated often enough as we shall see not as an inherent property of organisms with their environments but as inherent property of organisms themselves. In each case what could be seen as the name we give to the state of a dynamic system as viewed from a particular perspective is classically or commonly seen as an objective property of a logically and/or ontologically prior, autonomous entity. These alternative and perhaps rival conceptualizations of truth, knowledge, and fitness are commonly framed asymmetrically by the parties on both sides as Our enlightened truth versus Their error or illusion. But the alternatives could also be framed symmetrically on both sides as reflections of Our/Their..."Barbara Hernstein Smith p 252-3

The Long Versions

LP Williams argues that the proper object of FARADAY's "electrotonic" is 'the field' but if one reads Maxwell's article on Faraday's LINES of force and Physical Lines of FORCE in the same parralelizable space (as per Maxwell's notion of electro-magnetic transversality) it seems far from clear that the "internal" rotations must BE different states of fields per say. Stephan Wolfram goes to some length to distiguish in his investigation of "
simple programs" if quantum field theory and quantum mechanics are still not different expressions? As Pias expressed that Einstein's and Gibb's approaches are different and that Feynman asserted QED is the "physics" of biology mostly while Dirac simply said it is often better to have the math matical beauty first in the correct place it seems far from certain that Maxwell's "theory of molecular vortices" must only be about the physics of the field. Should the physcist's field evolve into the aetherial celluar matrix of macrothermodyanmics as synthesis of biological and physical heirarchies proceeds it is possible a better historical skecth than a pardigmatic shift can be proposed as Bridgman pointed out recent physical calls for modern instantiations of the aether (there are creationist ones as well) but I am not going to discuss if Netwon's use of capilliarity where Cohen thought it had to be electricity were dissonant as there seems to be the issue of "conspiring motions" that macrothermodynamics as a phenomenological theory might not have transcendental access to but could be relevant to biological issues of proposed soloutions of the vitalism-mechanism issue in biology claimed resolved in the 60s (Marler and Hamiliton MECHANISMS OF ANIMAL BEHAVIOR)

On the other side in the 80s Nordenstrom continued a very fragile historical thread by proposing the existence of biologically closed electric circuits and during this time Becker tried to revive claims of electro-magnetism in venues other than the Hodgen-Huxley nerve cell model as to bone regeneration. Stephen Jay Gould could not see any means to captialize D'Arcy Thompson's textualization of shoulder bone shapes and the volume -surface assertions in protozoans in terms of the well cited "D'Arcy Thompson Transforms"

There is also a bit of work being done on radio freqency effects and the quatum proposal of as to the effect of nonthermal effects on enezyme activity should not be overlooked.

The issue here is the detail of the metrics involved and this is where most of the science will be done. I have showcased the form of lichen sori and suggested that any allometric science on it will not have any bearing at all on the physics of the hierarchical relation but I deny that it falls into the space of a "spandrel" in the open sense of Gould. It is the consequence merely of reciprocal figurations from different genetic origins in roughly the same translation in space and form making.

At this point it is possible that general changes in the practice of thermoDYNAMICS are called for but there is likely to be much metrically that can be approached without major changes. One is to use Einstein's view of the use of tensors. It is not clear to me as of yet if Collet's group's work is not MORE important than Wolfram's but it is fairly clear to me that the simple idea from cybernetics of "feed back" may not be appropriate. In any option I would agree with Figenbaum that the kinematics MUST be defined ahead of any attempt at dynamism. This is why I have turned to Galelio and the relation of his figure of rope rapped around a solid and the Mathematics of perversions modeled after Kirchoof as a means to physical probe variations in metrics that are ordinally around any planimetric like embryology of possible singularities in the continuum involved but one will not be in a position to seperate pairs of locations from locations of voids at this form-making. It may be possible in the future should for instance Von Weisaker's use of the word "transformation" be univocal in some sense with Croizat's "translation in space and form-making". There are other constructive paths than the conservative one of distribuitive 1-D symmetry that I have taken but I am avoiding strange quantum speculations at this work on deductive biogeography for like Pascal I am a bit concerned that by loosing the simple geometric insight one may indeed loose the biolgists in this day and age access to truth through there own taxonomic subjectivity. This is why I rather find it easier to think about baramins than BUYING into FORMAL SYSTEMS of manipulation that might not lead to visuzalizable but could lead to statistically significant results. I am suspicious of Bertrand Russel's Cantorian Legacy but there is no reason that much can not be done without pure math changes as to the work of macrothermodyamics extending the linearity of Wright's shifting balance theory and trying to find the data to address Gould's notion of Fisher's "impotence". Regardless it seems highly likely that heierahies of Croizat's "tracks" might indeed become valuable as the baselines might indeed be related to conditions of decelerated evolution according to Gladyshev's law of temporal heirarchies. If that is the case what is required first in detail is not some fancy applied math but simply a reissueing of the Croizat method in macrothermodynamic terms. Of interest will be the integration of the age and area discussion of Croizat with the highest levels of the Gladyshev hierarchy but this will likely remand that issues in Wright's shifting balance theory be decided and not speculated on as I have proposed in this paper.


Eldridge The Triumph opf Evolution and the Failure of Creationism
Gould 2002 The Structure of Evolutionary Theory
Lawlor Derrida and Husserl
Levin and Kaufmann 1988
Meyer Michel Questioning Derrida With his replies on PhilosophyAshgate 2001
Schmalhausen 1949 Factors of Evolution
Smith and P editiors Mathematics, Science, and Postclassical Theory 1997 Duke University Press
Wallace 1968?
Weyl Symmetry
Wolfram A New Kind Of Science

This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 05-15-2004 08:57 AM

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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 1043 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003

Message 4 of 10 (107424)
05-11-2004 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brad McFall
05-11-2004 10:30 AM

Re: On the use of electrotonics to construct...
Ah, Brad, Brad, Brad, you're like a twinkling star in the otherwise bleak sky of rational discourse.

Bless you, man.

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001

Message 5 of 10 (107563)
05-11-2004 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dr Jack
05-11-2004 10:40 AM

Re: On the use of electrotonics to construct...
Georgi sent this;

What's New | New Journals | Browse Journals | Search | For Authors | How To Order | Contact Us | Free Table of Contents Email Updates | Download Acrobat Reader | Free Sample Issues | Advertising Enquiries | Journal Prices

Title: MACROTHERMODYNAMICS OF BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION: AGING OF LIVING BEINGS This article is based on a paper given to Presidium meeting of Russian Academy of Natural Sciences in September 2003, and on meeting at N. N. Semenov Institute of Chemical Physics of Russian Academy of Sciences in October 2003.
DOI No: doi:10.1142/S0217979204023970
Source: International Journal of Modern Physics B, Vol. 18, No. 6 (2004) 801-825
Copyright: World Scientific Publishing Company
Author(s): GEORGI P. GLADYSHEV International Academy of Creative Endeavors, San Diego, USA Corresponding address: N. N. Semenov Institute of Chemical Physics, Russian Academy of Sciences, Kosygina 4, Moscow, 117977, Russia
History: Received 31 December 2003
Abstract: The author sets forth general considerations pertaining to the thermodynamic theory of biological evolution and the aging of living organisms. It becomes much easier to comprehend the phenomenon of life scrutinizing the formation of structural hierarchies of biological matter applying different temporal scales. These scales are 'identified' by nature itself, and this is reflected in the law of temporal hierarchies. The author discusses some misunderstandings in thermodynamics and evolutionary biology. A simple physicochemical model of biological evolution and the development of living beings is proposed. The considered theory makes it possible to use physicochemical evaluations to develop effective anti-aging diets.
Keywords: Thermodynamics; second law; temporal hierarchies; supramolecular thermodynamics; biological evolution; aging and gerontology; dietary
Full Text: View full text in PDF format (273KB)
TOC: Back to contents of Vol. 18, No. 6

to which, if the reader attempts to internalize will be able to cognize the NEW economic actuality that can be approached macrothermodynamically. It is possible that buzwords nanotech and MEMS may be overstating thier own disciplined case just as when I was born Bruce Wallace only introduced coadaption to population genetics in a way that prevent me a decade or so later from actually PAYING to just get the education needed to be reading and understanding this edge. Now the work has gotten serious for it contemplates patent issues as well! Willow Tree and others who question my use of EVC may now understand that they need not understand just one person, me, but also Georgi Gladyshev as well. Of course you could choose just to follow the Russian version as I do not read that nor have access to translations in those terms. But I know the science of time in biology well enough and it appears that the Christian Faraday's DEVICE for disproving Galvanism may be more than an artifically selected conjunction of metals.

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1986 days)
Posts: 3417
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Message 6 of 10 (108416)
05-15-2004 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brad McFall
05-11-2004 10:30 AM

Re: On the use of electrotonics to construct...
On the standard collapse formulation of quantum mechanics, somehow during the measurement interaction the state would collapse to either the first term of this expression (with probability equal to a squared) or to the second term of this expression (with probability equal to b squared). In the former case, J ends up with the determinate measurement record "spin up", and in the later case J ends up with the determinate measurement record "spin down". But on Everett's proposal no collapse occurs. Rather, the post-measurement state is simply this entangled superposition of J recording the result "spin up" and S being x-spin up and J recording "spin down" and S being x-spin down. Call this state E for Everett. On the standard eigenvalue-eigenstate link (Rule 3) E is not a state where J determinately records "spin up", neither is it a state where J determinately records "spin down". So the puzzle for an interpretation of Everett is to explain the sense in which J's entangled superposition of mutually incompatible records is supposed to agree with the empirical prediction made by the standard collapse formulation of quantum mechanics. The standard collapse theory, again, predicts that J either ends up with the fully determinate measurement record "spin up" or the fully determinate record "spin down", with probabilities equal to a-squared and b-squared respectively.One might hope that the selection of a preferred basis would work the other way around: that the biological evolution of observers would select for observers who record their measurement results in whatever physical observable is in fact determinate. The idea is that observers would either start recording their measurement results in whatever physical observable is in fact determinate or face some sort of failure in action for not having determinate measurement records. The full explanation for why this does not work in a straightforward way is subtle, but the basic idea is simple: in a no-collapse theory, there is no decreased fitness for a good observer who fails to have determinate measurement records. Suppose that only the position of particles is in fact determinate, as in Bohm's theory, but that an observer nonetheless tries to record his measurements in terms of the x-spin of particles in his brain. Such an observer would typically not have any determinate measurement records, but it would be difficult for anyone to tell. The observer would himself not know because, for bare theory reasons, he would falsely believe that he had determinate measurement records. But neither would other observers typically know that he failed to have determinate records, for as soon as the observer's brain state becomes quantum-mechanically correlated with the position of anything, the observer would have an effectively determinate measurement record by dint of this correlation in the physically preferred quantity. The evolutionary upshot of this is that, as soon as there is the possibility of a determinate failure in action, a good observer would have precisely those determinate dispositions that would lead to successful action regardless of whether he started with a determinate measurement record. While such an observer eventually has something that serves the dispositional role of a measurement record, his belief that he had a determinate measurement record before he correlated his brain state with the state of the determinate preferred observable was simply false. (See Albert's 1992 discussion of measurement records in GRW for more details on the formation of effectively determinate records from an observer's dispositions to act.) = |A| |B| cos
Let |A1> and |A2> be vectors of length 1 ("unit vectors") such that = 0. (So the angle between these two unit vectors must be 90 degrees.) Then we can represent an arbitrary vector |B> in terms of our unit vectors as follows:
|B> = b1|A1> + b2|A2>
For example, here is a graph which shows how |B> can be represented as the sum of the two unit vectors |A1> and |A2>:

Figure 2: Representing |B> by Vector Addition of Unit Vectors
Now the definition of the inner product has to be modified to apply to complex spaces. Let c* be the complex conjugate of c. (When c is a complex number of the form a ± bi, then the complex conjugate c* of c is defined as follows:

[a + bi]* = a bi
[a bi]* = a + bi
So, for all complex numbers c, [c*]* = c, but c* = c just in case c is real.) Now definition of the inner product of |A> and |B> for complex spaces can be given in terms of the conjugates of complex coefficients as follows. Where |A1> and |A2> are the unit vectors described earlier, |A> = a1|A1> + a2|A2> and |B> = b1|A1> + b2|A2>, then
= (a1*)(b1) + (a2*)(b2)
The most general and abstract notion of an inner product, of which we've now defined two special cases, is as follows. is an inner product on a vector space V just in case

(i) = |A|2, and =0 if and only if A=0
(ii) = *

(iii) = + .

It follows from this that
(i) the length of |A> is the square root of inner product of |A> with itself, i.e.,
|A| = , When a pair of physical systems interact, they form a composite system, and, in quantum mechanics as in classical mechanics, there is a rule for constructing the state-space of a composite system from those of its components, a rule that tells us how to obtain, from the state-spaces, HA and HB for A and B, respectively, the state-space -- called the ‘tensor product’ of HA and HB, and written HAHB -- of the pair. There are two important things about the rule; first, so long as HA and HB are Hilbert spaces, HAHB will be as well, and second, there are some facts about the way HAHB relates to HA and HB, that have surprising consequences for the relations between the complex system and its parts. In particular, it turns out that the state of a composite system is not uniquely defined by those of its components. What this means, or at least what it appears to mean, is that there are, according to quantum mechanics, facts about composite systems (and not just facts about their spatial configuration) that don't supervene on facts about their components; it means that there are facts about systems as wholes that don't supervene on facts about their parts and the way those parts are arranged in space. The significance of this feature of the theory cannot be overplayed; it is, in one way or another, implicated in most of its most difficult problems.

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1986 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003

Message 7 of 10 (108418)
05-15-2004 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brad McFall
05-11-2004 10:30 AM

Re: On the use of electrotonics to construct...
Sorry, Brad I forgot to include the bibliography:

The mammalian pineal gland contains several neurotransmitters and receptors for amino acids, biogenic amines, and peptides. Some of these, such as D1 and D2 dopamine receptors, have been previously identified and characterized in the bovine pineal gland by our group. As a matter of fact, the density of D1 dopamine receptors in the pineal gland is higher than that of corpus striatum, suggesting that this organ must possess a high affinity dopamine transporter, which has been identified in this study by using [3H]GBR 12935 as a radiological ligand and nomifensine to determine non-specific binding. The association rate of [3H]GBR 12935 binding to the pineal membrane was examined as a function of time. The binding reached equilibrium within 45 min of incubation at 25 degrees C. The specific binding was reversible and saturable. The dissociation time course of the specific [3H]GBR 12935 binding from the bovine pineal membrane was also studied. A half-life (t1/2) of 14-min was obtained. The saturation analysis of the [3H]GBR 12935 binding revealed a dissociation equilibrium constant (Kd) of 6.0 +/- 0.9 nm and a receptor density (Bmax) of 6.9 +/- 0.3 pmol/mg protein, which were comparable with those values obtained from bovine striatum and frontal cortex. In competitive experiments, the concentrations of drugs required to inhibit 50% of the binding (IC50) were in descending order GBR 12909 > GBR 12935 > trans-flupenthixol > nomifensine > cis-flupenthixol > amitriptyline > imipramine > desipramine > dopamine > fluoxetine > fuvoxamine > d-amphetamine. However, nisoxetine, SCH 23390, norepinephrine, and serotonin were unable to displace [3H]GBR binding. These results show that drugs capable of blocking dopamine transporters were effective in displacing [3H]GBR binding; whereas specific norepinephrine and serotonin transporter inhibitors were less effective or ineffective. In addition, the dopamine transporter is ion-dependent as sodium increased [3H]GBR binding in a concentration related manner. These results indicate that a high affinity dopamine transporter exists in the bovine pineal, which may exhibit circadian periodicity, and whose physiological functions need to be delineated and characterized in future investigations.

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001

Message 8 of 10 (108646)
05-16-2004 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Cold Foreign Object
05-15-2004 3:28 PM

Re: On the use of electrotonics to construct...
I have not gotton into the physical heirarchies as far as you have. All I can actually recall from my past attempts directly in your direction was if using Hilbert Spaces might have precluded some of my biological ideas. I will have to rethink all of that now. So I will post in more detail under your second post as "brain" biology is certainly where it will applied so instead I will just make some intial comments.

Evolutionarily, as you indicated really has to do with the objectivity and the nervous system with "Deception" as to darwininan indiviudals that succeed. It is not clear to me that simple anantomical discection will provide acesss to darwininan change under decpetion in the models of physics but in the extent for instance that macrothermodynamics might proove the non-existence of individuals in Grades to a significant porttion of a heirarchy then I can not exclude today the details of your suggestion. Dont get me wrong you could be correct. I need to think about it some more. It is certainly beyond any ones common learning curve to try to be discussing what biological evolution of obsevers would "select" for...but as you may have noticed Gladyshev does allow for reverse heirarchical influnce DOWN the hierarchy temporally.

I do understand that ONCE there is QM correlation with something then... but the issue of my adding to Georgi's work (as if it works if it works) is to indicate where we currently would be finding these correlations may only be different BIOLOGICAL process(ing) of thermally initiated electric currents under equilibrium conditions that on subsequent possible Darwinain selection "collapse" a wave function. But If I understand your post causally you are imagining something before even this in time.

Does that make sense to you? If the technical application of electrotonics works it will not be necessary to seek a time prior thus but if my own addition to macrothermo fails then time may be ripe to try to find the commonality in your approach and Georgi's (looking for the linearlity explicity in the brain etc.) Your discussion of 'evolutionary upshot' have mentally labeled as Kant's notion of junction in community but I have long forgot where exactly in Kant that came from. I am not ready to deal with any discontinuity at this point in educating my self on COMPLETE DIFFERENTIAL EQUATIONS but there is not a philosophical reason to discount what you said as of yet in my own understanding. I would be personally against the idea that ontologically there are DIFFERENT subjective access to "facts" on different levels (components vs process supervience etc) but as you surely know my phsyical intuition is much less finely "tuned" than my biological self-reproductive flesh was. There is an error in biology (in my mind)that seperates metabolism and replication that may be confusing me here as I have not conceptually seperated metabolism from small deviations of Glasdyshev's principle within a NATURAL LAW but this seems possible no matter how the nervous system may even 'subvert' deceptive evolution. So there is hope for us coming to terms somewhere down the line"".

This message has been edited by Brad McFall, 05-16-2004 12:56 PM

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1986 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003

Message 9 of 10 (108847)
05-17-2004 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brad McFall
05-16-2004 1:54 PM

Re: On the use of electrotonics to construct...
Oh now I see.....

Brad, I concede the debate - you win !



This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 05-17-2004 06:32 PM

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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 3971 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001

Message 10 of 10 (110207)
05-24-2004 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Cold Foreign Object
05-17-2004 3:50 PM

Re: On the use of electrotonics to construct...
When I had written that I had not noticed that Georgi then says of the superpostions that THEY TOO (IN ADDTION) are subject to macrothermodynamic equilbria but this has to do with PRIOR linear relations only which is not what I had meant to say. It did however "close off" the extent of extracting brains from a given brain in terms of the linear science I am interested myself in still pursuing.

It is possible that my more radical application of Georgi's work is wrong as I am ACTIVELY reading Maxwell's electrotonics this way but I have also been able to find in Cantor's suppostions about theoretical physics (theory of content, perfect, adherent, coherent, and inherent sets) perhaps a new way to calcualte the equilbira of life times in terms of transfinte numbers that DEDEKINS explicitly rejected. It is all toooo interesting and really only barely out of my grasp. It is no longer merely "swimming" under the bridge in my brain.

It turn in to me that that science may have missed in the history to Georgi Gladyshev's classic law the retention of particular ideas of Faraday,Hamilton and Cantor combined because the move to avagadroism was dominated by non-religous scientists. It also seems suspciously possible that Darwinian INDIVIDUALITY PREVENTED this science from becomeing standard in the environment of non-equilibrium and non-linear searches. But let me stay with the positive and make my feelings known that now you and I can see somewhat more Aye to eyE. Thanks for opening this thread again.

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