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Author Topic:   Points for a creator
alaninnont
Member (Idle past 5524 days)
Posts: 107
Joined: 02-27-2009


Message 1 of 3 (501036)
03-03-2009 8:14 PM


I guarantee that every atheist here would be absolutely delighted if you were to present evidence contrary to their beliefs. Please, feel free to begin a thread dedicated to evidence against an atheist or evolutionist point of view. I count myself in both camps, and assure you that I will examine any such evidence that you provide and block nothing out.
I love guarantees. Background: I've been harbouring conflicting ideas about origins in my mind for many years. A couple of months ago I decided I would try to come to some kind of conclusion to ease the arguing factions in my mind. After a couple of months of surfing, thinking, and reading I believe it is more probable that a creator was involved in the making of the universe and possibly in the evolutionary process. My methodical (some would say anal) mind has not yet dealt with the question of what kind of creator but I'm hoping to find more input in these forums.
First my apologies for: being long winded, repeating things that have been hashed over in these forums, missing obvious points (I've only been at this a couple of months). Here are the points that I've found for the existence of some kind of creator.
1. The universe couldn't have existed always otherwise all heat and energy would be spread evenly throughout the universe (second law of thermodynamics) and so it was created. That implies that something created it.
2. The conditions needed for life are very specific. It seems extremely improbable that they came about by chance. You can only call on the anthropic principle (it must have happened that way or we wouldn't be here to talk about it) so many times before you say the improbabilities are just too great. Setting up the conditions seem to indicate that something/someone was setting them up.
a) Immediately after the big bang all matter in the universe expanded faster than the speed of light. If it hadn't done so, the conditions for life wouldn't have happened.
b) Then matter expanded at exactly the right speed to form stars and planets. Stephen Hawkins says that if they expanded one part in a thousand million millions slower, matter would have collapsed back on itself. Any faster and stars wouldn't have formed.
c) The stars and the planet earth.
d) After the earth cooled, there was no water. We needed water for life. 326 000 000 000 000 000 000 gallons (that's 16 500 tons of water every minute for 150 million years) appeared on earth with no good explanations for the amount.
e) There are right handed and left handed amino acids. If both existed on earth then life could not have happened. Somehow all the right handed amino acids were eliminated.
f) The development of the atmosphere for life and a stable world with small temperature changes (no other planets discovered so far could support our kind of life).
3. There is no plausible model for the first cell. There is no good explanation for where all the molecules came from and no good explanation for how they came together in close proximity.
4. Even if all the ingredients for a cell are brought together in plentiful supply in a test tube, life does not occur. Something needs to "breathe" life into it.
5. Very specific proteins with very specific tasks (eg. DNA polymerase) are needed for life. The probability of about 1 000 amino acids arranging themselves in the right order is infinitesimally small. There are many more specific enzymes that are needed for life to occur.
6. Life needed a DNA or RNA strand of about 30 000 base pairs to begin. The probability of about 30 000 nucleic acids arranging themselves in the right order is almost too small to be worth considering possible.
7. The second law of thermodynamics states that in any system, open or closed, all things tend toward entropy. For chance evolution to occur, the opposite would have had to happen millions of times over.
8. The fossil record shows sudden jumps in complexity. The first animal was the comb jelly (Nature; April 10, 2008) which has connective tissue and a nervous system. During the Cambrian Explosion, plants and animals suddenly (in the geological sense) went from very simple to very complex. It is easier to believe that something was involved in the process rather than evolution took jumps.
9. Natural selection selects out or for certain traits. It does not increase the complexity of the organism.
10. There have been no beneficial mutations documented that increase the complexity of the organism.
11. In every culture there is a belief in spiritual beings.
12. Complex organs like the eye could not have evolved since there are many steps that give no benefit to the organism and there is no reason to continue along a path to build them.
13. There are DNA segments that exists in different species that did not exist in their common ancestor.
14. In cases of people who have been resuscitated, they experience very similar things including meeting some "being of light." (See work by Dr. Raymond Moody)
15. Any time we see complexity, we immediately assume that an intelligent being organized it. Why would we assume different for the universe?
16. Nobody has observed evolution occuring. Even those there are more humanoid beings living right now than for the last six million years and far more mutanogens. Lots of evolutionary steps happened then. Why are not more happening now? We see the extinction of many species but no new species appearing. Evidence shows fewer species developing.
17. Many cellular systems seem to be front loaded. They seem to contain systems needed for higher level organisms. It seems like someone was setting up evolution from the start. (See posts in early Feb. in http://designmatrix.wordpress.com/)
18. There are many fossil records from early animals but the fossil records of any transitory species is weak at best.
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added a lot of blank lines.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 03-03-2009 10:42 PM alaninnont has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 3 (501057)
03-03-2009 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by alaninnont
03-03-2009 8:14 PM


Lots of Fun Material, but...
There is lots in this opening post that needs to be discussed; that is the good news.
The not-so-good news is that we try to focus each thread here since we (for a number of reasons) shut threads down at about 300 threads and, more importantly, it is less confusing if we have focus.
Your have points that range from cosmology to details of biology. They are so totally separate that we put them in different forums (sic) not just different threads.
You have a large number that are grouped under what is called the Anthropic Principle and maybe you could just discuss those under that umbrella.
You also have some that are so totally wrong that even creationist web sites say they shouldn't be used any more. (These are sometimes called PRATTs -- points refuted 1,000 times). I suggest you spend a bit of time researching what you are posting. (see point 7)
Others are simply known to be factually incorrect. So you damage your case by putting them forward. (point 9).
You have also lifter at least some of this from another source. This is plagiarism if you don't attribute it (even if it is you as the source it doesn't hurt to reference that fact so you don't appear to be dishonest.)
You might want to take this and pick 2 or 3 points that you consider strongest. Then check to see if they have been discussed here or elsewhere. You can then strengthen you argument and get this off to a better start.
When you have chosen those and updated this please reply so that an admin notices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by alaninnont, posted 03-03-2009 8:14 PM alaninnont has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3977
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 3 of 3 (501075)
03-04-2009 1:36 AM


Thread copied to the Points for a creator thread in the The Great Debate forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

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