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Author | Topic: Jews Rejected God's Offer | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
In the thread History Buffs, Come Help Me With Jesus Phatboy stated that the Gentiles were given the same option that the Jews rejected.
I have heard this phrase or variations of it before, but no one has been able to tell me clearly what the offer was or where it is written. No one has been able to show me where any clear option was presented to the Jewish Community by God and where the Jewish Community clearly rejected an offer from God. Show me where God made a clear offer to the Jewish Community, as a whole, and what that specific offer was! Show me where the Jewish Community, as a whole, clearly rejected a specific offer from God. NOTE to Admin: I would like this in the Accuracy and Inerrancy forum if possible. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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AdminJar Inactive Member |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Excellent!
Thanks
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ramoss Member Posts: 3226 Joined: |
May I also request that when pointing out these alleged offers from God, that the Tankah is referenced, not Christian scriptures. After all, the Jews do not accept Christian scriptures as being from God, but only written by man.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2728 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I would agree since during the time of the supposed offer and rejection the NT didn't exist, so a Jew before or soon after the crucifixion would only have the Jewish documents to verify what they were being told.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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Phat Member Posts: 15992 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: |
We could examine the prophecies concerning the Messiah, but that would involve a new thread. My references are all N.T. and all written by men. As to the inspiration or lack thereof, THAT is a matter of ones personal belief. Start by reading this webpage. I found it and see that their information is most of what I have been taught concerning the revelation of the mystery.
This is where Paul first mentions the switch:
Paul was thought of as a misguided Jew, as was Jesus, by many Jews. The Christian answer is that these Jews were unwilling to see the Messiah for who He is. Again, a matter of opinion and belief.
Even Jesus knew that He initially was to come for the Jews.
Again, I must emphasize: The Jews individually each had a chance to accept the Messiah, and, many did. As a nation, however, they were cut off after they rejected, as a nation, the Messiah. Dispensational theology sees the Bible as encompassing different timeframes, or dispensations: Currently, we are in the Church Age...#6. The book of Revelation is written for the Jews, #7. This belief presumes a pre trib rapture. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 11-21-2004 11:01 PM
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 614 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
well, i'm not talking to only christians here, so i will not limit my references to the new testament. here's some from the qu'ran that pretty clearly says that you're a devil worshipper. quote: quote: quote: now, do you believe any of this? do you even care? giving jewish people christians texts is just SILLY. most of them so full of distortions of the judaic faith that it's plainly apparent how full of bs it all is. the jews are waiting for a messiah. he is to be a man from the family of david (ben'david) not just any son of man (ben'adam) and not a son of god (ben'eloyhim). he will sit on the throne of a unified KINGDOM of israel and judah, and he will rebuild the temple of solomon and reinstitute sacrifices. they've been waiting for this messiah for more than 2000 years, and jesus did not fit the bill. it's plainly clear that christian gospel aimed at jews (matthew) misunderstood most of the jewish texts it references, picking invalid messianic prophesies, exchanging family names for places, using the wrong names, misunderstanding parrellisms in jewish poetry, etc. the jewish people have a covenant... a legally binding contract with god. they are the chosen people, and their promise from god has been fulfilled. there was no offer of any kind, they are bound to the law because god rescued them from the hands of the egyptians. and they were chosen for some reason that god only knows. did god change his mind? you can't claim to believe the bible, and not believe these things.
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ApologistSpecialists ![]() Inactive Suspended Member |
Like Jesus was.
Not true. "And His name shall be Emmanuel (translated 'God with us')."
And He will.
Now you're refrencing the Talmud, which is not true Jewish scripture (and, yes, I know that a Jew would disagree, but history is not with him).
No, it was the traditional interpretation that was flawed, just like the traditional interpretation of many Christian doctrines today is flawed. You can't just say "no, that's wrong, because the majority disagrees with it"
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AdminNosy Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: |
This "new" member has been banned
If you are actually new you may email the director and see about reinstatment. This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 11-22-2004 03:06 AM
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 614 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
jesus called himself the son of man, which generally meant prophet, but held messianic connotations. however, the messiah must be descended from david, on the father's side. if jesus is literally the son of god, then he is not literally the son of david. you can't have both, and the messiah has to be a literal KING in house of david.
but jesus's name was yehoshua, not immanuel. immanuel does mean "god is with us" but it's not implication that the man called immanuel IS god. it's not uncommon to have a hebrew name that says something about god in the bible. the immanuel prophesy was indeed messianic, but did jesus liberate israel from the assyrians? no, he was several hundred years after that. the prophesy is not talking about him.
but this is a requirement the jews are looking for in a messiah. jesus was not a king, he never sat on a throne. rather, he was a lowly carpenter, and religious reformist. he's more inline with say, amos, than david.
well, yes. if you've read the new testament you know that the (second) temple existed in jesus's day. applying this standard to him is a little unfair, but he did promise to destroy it and rebuild it in a day. he was most likely speaking metaphorically. the temple was destroyed again in ad 70, and has not succesfully been rebuilt to this day. it extends beyond the talmud, it's in the dialy prayers of every orthodox jew. it's something the coming messiah will do.
uh, no. that's not what i said. here's one i used in another thread. quote: now, this doesn't pair off perfectly like traditional jewish poetry, but look at it for a second. rejoice greatly = raise a shout. fair zion = fair jerusalem. this is a pattern easily observed in many, many passages in the bible. it's called parellelism. and so when zechariah says "riding on an ass, on a donkey" he doesn't mean two animals. he's just repeating himself, poetically. but the author of matthew aimed the gospel at jews, and based as much as he could on jewish texts. but he CLEARLY did not understand the texts, because he read it as two different animals. indeed, in matthew, christ rides into jerusalem on two animals. quote: wanna explain that one to me, apologist? how did jesus ride into jerusalem on two animals at once? isn't it more likely that author misunderstood poetry. here's the next verse of the prophesy quote: notice the continuation of the parallelisms. but did jesus do those things? did he sit on a throne that rules the entire earth? is there still war under his rule? this not a majority disagrees problem. i've read a good section of the bible and understand it.
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JasonChin ![]() Inactive Suspended Member |
Christ is of David's blood line. He is a son of David. To suggest that it makes a difference whether he's descended from his mother or father's line seems odd.
Of course, they weren't speaking about literal name......
I've also been led to believe differently. Please supply proof for this claim.
But not "Immanuel".......that is the name of God incarnate and God incarnate alone.
I don't understand what the physical liberation from the Assyrians has to do with anything.
But, again, He will.
Three days, if I remember.......and he did. He was speaking of his own ressurection.
It's in the prayers of every orthodox Jew.......who are all influenced by the Talmud. This whole "Messiah will raise the temple" thing was really basically an excuse for not having to do this themselves........because the Romans would have annhilated them if they had tried.
No......but, again, he will.
Or he sat on one while the other was led........I don't see the relevance, either way.
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JasonChin ![]() Inactive Suspended Member |
So, basically, Arach, your argument that only misinterpretation could lead to seeing Christ as Messiah is based on facts such as there being one donkey too many when he entered Jerusalem.......
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 614 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
because the line of kings is patriarchal. it's through the father. this is the reason matthew has a line of kings for jesus's lineage, but luke does not. the jews are looking for a KING.
yes. they were. it says a young girl still in her father's house will concieve a child and name him immanuel, and that this child will become a messiah against the assyrians. the focus of the verse is not the virginity of the mother (indeed, the hebrew word only strongly implies virginity, not specifically states it), but the name of the child. your logic is strange. it seems to say that ANYONE called god IS god according to this prophesy. alright, fine. adminnosy is god with us. is he the messiah? since i just called him by that name, he's been called that more times than jesus ever was in the bible. even the verse in matthew says that they called him jesus, and the name is never mentioned again. it's matthew nodding to isaiah, and reading the verse wrong, just as you are. for some reasons the literalists seems to read isaiah metaphorically.
my bible says "with us is God." it's just what the name means. lots of biblical names have god in it: israel, elijah, etc. joshua even contains the proper name of god. these are all names that describe qualities or actions of god, not to think that because it contains the a name for god means that bearer IS god is silly.
because isaiah chapters 7-12 is one long rant and prophesy against the assyrians. after that, it's the babylonians. these are people who LITERALLY oppressed the judeans and the israelites. the child that would be a harbinger of their downfall would be LITERAL.
that's nice, but during his life, he was never king of israel and judah. he's not now. maybe he will be at one point. buth currently, he's not the messiah the jews are looking for.
sort of, yes. he was speaking of tearing down the organization. he was of the mindset that we shouldn't need a church to come between us and our god.
actually, a roman emporer sponsered an attempt to rebuilt the temple around ad 300.
maybe the messiah the jews are looking for is the second coming of christ. but he sure wasn't the first. as it stands now, jesus is not that messiah.
it says he rode in on both, in order to fulfil prophesy. i think the evidence is pretty clear that matthew misunderstood the prophetic poetry. zechariah refers to one animal, twice. matthew refers to two animals, once.
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JasonChin ![]() Inactive Suspended Member |
The Bible never states that Messiah would be the rightful heir to David's throne via heredity, just that he'd be of David's bloodline.
I doubt this, as there have been a number of though-to-be Messiahs over the course of Jewish history, and I don't recall them all being named Immanuel. After all, a mother would be accused of blasphemy simply by naming her child Immanuel and claiming that he was the Messiah (as Jesus was accused of blasphemy for claiming the same thing).
My Bible says "God with us", and I've always been taught by every source that it was a name specifically suggesting the divinity of Messiah........I may have been taught incorrectly, but I'd need some proof of that. BTW, if I'm not mistaken, there are other prophecies suggesting the divinity of Messiah.......such as that he'd live forever and his kingdom would never end.
Revelations speaks of Jesus conquering Babylon........does that mean when Jesus returns, he's gonna literally conquer Iraq? Because I think Dubbya beat him to it........
That's because the Jews misinterpret scripture by being too literal......
I don't know anything about this, but I'm pretty sure that was after large portions of the Talmud were already taken as Canon.
If you admit this, then you admit that there is no obstacle in the OT to Jesus being the Messiah. What you just seem to have a hard time understanding is that Jesus is the Christ NOW........Jesus was Christ before the creation of the world.........not all prophecy has been fulfilled, but Jesus is Christ, and God is God, always has been, is, and forever more He will be.
This is obviously impossible........do you think Matthew was too dim to understand this?
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 614 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
no my argument is nothing. i'm trying to explain why the jews don't see jesus as a messiah. i'm also arguing that matthew is grossly misinterpretting verses out of context from the tanakh. for instance: quote: quote: now hosea IS speaking metaphorically. israel is not jacob or jesus, it's israel the nation. he's refering to the exodus, and then refers to the assyrian captivity a few verses later. here's another doozie. quote: quote: now, the part in can also be read "a bruised reed, he shall no be broken; / a dim wick, he shall not be snuffed out." is either talking about jesus? he was bruised, indeed BROKEN long before he ruled any kingdom, and long before his teaching covered the world. and "bring judgement to the gentiles?" that's a BAD thing for the gentiles. they're talking about ruling, literally. if you want to discuss more, i suggest starting a new thread. some of the prophesies in matthew appear to be in books we don't have. and some are really bad.
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