Buddika on the Genesis Flood

--You have, in another thread, exclaimed that the Genesis Flood is a bunch of hog wash with support from Fred Williams dodging your questions, or something along this line. I'd ask you to cite an example which conflicts Flood mechanics, with specific confliction with an observation in the geosciences. I would enjoy to discuss this with you.

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"I guess that explains why he didn't dare take me on in a second, much more tightly focused debate on the Genesis flood. He claimed he did not have time, but I see he found time recently to debate someone other than me. My guess is that he saw the writing on the wall when I touched on the flood in the debate and perhaps he thought the material was "too much to handle", just like the 300 lies...."
--I enjoy the topic of Flood mechanics, most assuredly when it is a geoscientific acquisition, create another thread for this and I may join you.

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--I took a second to do this for you.------------------

Fossil forests throughout the GC......?

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
You have, in another thread, exclaimed that the Genesis Flood is a bunch of hog wash with support from Fred Williams dodging your questions, or something along this line. I'd ask you to cite an example which conflicts Flood mechanics, with specific confliction with an observation in the geosciences. I would enjoy to discuss this with you.

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HOw about the lack of a single correlatable transgressive sequence, i.e. a flood deposit, in the geological record?Or maybe the presence of unconformities througout the geological record which indicate emergent land surfaces?

^ A global flood ocurring over a year in surges and experiencing global tidal motions simply would be expected to generate unconformities, reverse transgressions and aerial exposures. You mainly argue against a strawman of your construction.[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 10-06-2002]

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Originally posted by Tranquility Base:
A global flood ocurring over a year in surges and experiencing global tidal motions simply would be expected to generate unconformities, reverse transgressions and aerial exposures.

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You mean surges that occurred every couple of weeks and yet forests could grow in between them? Surges that allowed dinosaurs to build nests before the next surge? Surges that never really convered the entire earth if there are always unconformities at some locations? And surges that formed transgressions and regressions with the same current directions? Surges that formed stream channels across mudflats? TB, I have no idea what you are talking about.Besides, what is your mechanism for tidal surges? Was the moon much larger in those days? Why did they become so high for only a year? You have no mechanim and no evidence.

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You mainly argue against a strawman of your construction.

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Not really. You have failed to attend to your details. You cannot explain them. You have only taken an oversimplified view of Pennsylvanian geology and added some wishful thinking to create an untenable legend.[This message has been edited by edge, 10-06-2002]

"Fossil forests throughout the GC......?"
--I don't think there is much conflict between the presence of fossil forests in the GC as flood deposited. A brief description of the Miocene fossil forest in Vantage, east-central Washington is one example. Fluid lavas originating from a hot-spot in the area whose lavas and eruptions would have been similar to those which currently occur at the Kilauea volcano on the island of Hawaii. There are many multitudes of lava flows which occurred in the area, 5 of which contributed major quantities of lava.
--There are continued in the fossil successions, several species of trees which are more commonly found in eastern North America today, such as hickory, oak, walnut, beech, elm, and ash, plus some species which are now only located in eastern Asia, such as Chinese walnut and katsura. For explanation for why some petrified wood deposits contain remnants of trees from diverse habitats, mainstream theories may range around something such as a lake which had formed where ancestral Columbia river was blocked by lava flows or large mudflows from erupting cascade volcanoes. Logs from the forests, in theory, were swept away by the river and carried to this lake where large rafts were formed on the surface and bottom. This does not seem to conflict with such a floods occurrence and may even be expected as the enormous quantities of wood trees would be transported to diverse areas. The series of eruptions spreading across the landscape rather than destroying the trees, entombed them because they were waterlogged. Eruptive intercessions would either allow more trees for the process to begin again, and/or the large rafts of trees would become the next victim of entombment. After the cascade range began to rise again, there would no longer be successive forests without hydrodynamic transportation of wood. The range uplift to where it may not again be submerged.
--The Vantage logs were deposited in a water environment from their water-worn appearances which also indicate a transportation of the materials. Logs are typically found in horizontal orientations indicating this is the case as well as being concentrated there.--While this is not the only existing diagnostic conclusion from from interpreting the data, I argue that it allows for such a deposition.--Anyways, the initial question was directed toward Buddika so I await his argument to be presented as well.------------------[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 10-06-2002][This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 10-06-2002]

TC,Fossil forests that have alleged flood deposits beneath & above them, at Devonian ages & more recent, how? Especially multiple layers of forests rooted in paleosols with animal tracks, burrows, etc.What mechanism could possibly allow a complete forest floor to be ripped up & placed gently on top of catastrophically derived sediment, & then rain down more sediment on top of that? This means that the cenozoic forests were ripped up in the early moments of the flood, floated around intact until the last sediments of the GC were being laid down.Perhaps when I said fossil forests, I should have said paleosols, as well, the principle is the same.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

"Perhaps when I said fossil forests, I should have said paleosols, as well, the principle is the same."
--I think I see the problem which you point out in need of explanation. Though firstly I'd like more data from which I might begin deducing conclusions regarding it specifically. I have exemplified the Vantage, east-central Washington Miocene fossil forest deposits and presented my thoughts on their burial. Similarly I would like a more specified geographical location for such a deposit of fossil forests along with included (underlying[?])paleosol stratum, tracks, and burrows. I'll attempt to do some research on a Devonian deposit such as this, until then it would be appreciated if you may contribute also seeing it is in fact your argument.------------------

TC,I'll try to get onto it on Tuesday, bear with me.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

"I'll try to get onto it on Tuesday, bear with me."
--No problem, I have things to do for the next couple of hours so I'll do as much research as possible tonight unless I get too caught up in Quetzals request for an alternative to ToE thesis .------------------

TC,nsf.gov - Error: Organization does not exist | NSF - National Science Foundation

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Permian and Triassic paleosols and paleoenvironments of the central Transantarctic Mountains, Antarctica

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Gregory J. Retallack, Evelyn S. Krull, and Scott E. Robinson, Department of Geological Sciences, University of Oregon, Eugene, Oregon 97403

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We embarked upon our study of paleosols as guides to Permian and Triassic paleoenvironments around the Beardmore and Shackleton Glaciers of the central Transantarctic Mountains with some trepidation because few fossil soils had been reported there (Horner and Krissek 1991). It was pleasing to discover abundant paleosols (341 of 16 different kinds) in a stratigraphic section of 568 meters (m) spanning the Permian-Triassic boundary on a low northwestern spur of Graphite Peak (figures 1 and 2; 852.99'S 17221.65'E) and also 34 of 6 kinds within 40 m measured in the natural amphitheater low on the northeast face of Mount Rosenwald ( figure 3; 853.09'S 17829.52'E). Each pedotype was named after antarctic geologists: Alton Wade, Kerby LaPrade, James Morton Schopf, James Waller Collinson, David H. Elliot, William Roy Hammer, Julia Miller, and Molly Miller. Other names were carried through from paleosols in southern Victoria Land (Retallack, Krull, and Robinson 1996). Each pedotype represents a unique ancient ecosystem.

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Coals are the most obvious paleosol horizons of the Late Permian, Buckley Formation. Two kinds of paleosols bear coal: the James pedotype has impure coal and subhorizontal Vertebraria roots in the underclay, but the Evelyn pedotype has bright coal and Vertebraria penetrating deeply [more than 5 centimeters (cm) and up to 92 cm]. Chambered roots as well as fossil stumps and leaves of Glossopteris are evidence that James and Evelyn pedotypes supported swamp woodlands. Their differences reflect reduced sediment supply and an initially deeper water table in Evelyn compared with James paleosols. Cherty tuffaceous siltstones and claystones include two kinds of very weakly developed paleosols. Morton pedotypes have blue hue, Glossopteris, thin Vertebraria, and rare burrows, but Molly pedotypes have green hue, Paracalamites, thin unchambered roots, and locally common burrows

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Paleosols of the Early to Middle Triassic Fremouw Formation are of entirely different pedotypes. They also are more even in their development and distribution than Permian paleosols (figure 2), indicating a marked paleoenvironmental change across the Permian-Triassic boundary. Some Early Triassic paleosols of the lower Fremouw Formation are identical to those in the Feather Conglomerate and Lashly Formation of southern Victoria Land. These include John (gray and thick with subsurface accumulation of clay), Dolores (gray and thin with subsurface nodules of berthierine), Michael (lithic sandstone with stout white root traces), and Edwin (quartz sandstone with burrows and root traces) pedotypes.

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Red paleosols are a distinctive feature of the Fremouw Formation in the Shackleton and Beardmore Glacier area. At Graphite Peak (figures 1 and 2), they are 50-112 m above the base of the formation. Red paleosols were also found at a comparable stratigraphic level at Mount Rosenwald (figure 3), on the 2,870-m peak near Mount Layman (8448.70'S 17978.18'W) and on Mount Boyd (8448.83'S 17968'W). The red paleosols included Roy (shaley with scattered red mottles), Julia (sandy with red subsurface), and David pedotypes (with red clayey subsurface). All have abundant stout drab-haloed root traces and are comparable to humid, cool-temperate, forested paleosols of the middle to upper Narrabeen Group of the Sydney Basin, Australia (Retallack 1977a).

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341 paleosols identified in 568m of strata, many containing burrows, roots, & in one case, stumps.Just a moment...

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Pliocene pedosedimentary cycles in the southern Pampas, Argentina

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Kemp & Zrate

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Well-developed Bt horizons of five palaeosols (P1-P5) have been recorded previously within a 20-m-thick succession of Pliocene siltstones and clayey siltstones in the southern part of the Buenos Aires Province of Argentina. This paper reports a detailed field and micromorphological (thin section) investigation of a 6-m portion of the sequence encompassing P2 and P3. Large-scale faunal burrow infillings occur throughout.

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Multiple paleosols with burrows.oladieta.com.br

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Latest Cretaceous (Maastrichtian) aridity indicated by paleosols in the McRae Formation, south-central New Mexico.

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pp. 559-572 (doi:10.1006/cres.1995.1036) Brenda J. Buck, Greg H. Mack

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ABSTRACT

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The McRae Formation in south-central New Mexico contains paleosols that indicate a significant increase in aridity occurred during the latest Cretaceous (late Maastrichtian). The McRae Formation is approximately 420 m thick and consists of interbedded fluvial channel sandstone and conglomerate, floodplain mudstone and fine sandstone, and siliceous ash-fall tuff. It has been divided into a lower Jose Creek Member and an upper Hall Lake Member. A Lancian dinosaur fauna is present in both members, indicating a late Maastrichtian age for the McRae Formation.

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Jose Creek paleosols are classified as argillisols and probably formed under humid to subhumid conditions. Paleosols in the Jose Creek member consist of A, E, and Bt horizons and are associated with numerous in situ petrified stumps, the largest of which is 1.7 m in diameter. The argillic B horizons (Bt) contain vertical clay-filled root traces, rhizoliths, blocky peds, embedded-grain argillans, and ped argillans. In contrast, paleosols in the Hall Lake Member are calcisols and vertic calcisols. These paleosols are characterized by Bw, Bt, Btk, Bk, and K horizons. The calcic horizons contain vertical calcite-filled tubules and carbonate nodules, in addition to calcans, spar coats, brecciated zones, alveolar-septal fabric and gypsum pseudomorphs. The vertic calcisols contain wedge-shaped peds and slickensides. The presence of calcic horizons in the Hall Lake Member suggest that the paleoclimate was significantly drier than during deposition of the Jose Creek Member. In addition, the vertic features indicate periods of wetting and desiccation (seasonality of precipitation?) during Hall Lake Time. Late Maastrichtian aridity, based on paleosols, has been interpreted for the Big Bend region of Texas, central Utah, and for Alberta, Canada, suggesting that the increase in aridity found in south-central New Mexico occurred throughout the Western Interior of North America. Copyright 1995, 1999 Academic Press

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More paleosols found in the same stratigraphic sequence.No post on paleosols & fossil forests would be complete without Specimen Ridge getting a mention.http://www.geocities.com/earthhistory/forests.htm

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The Lamar River Formation in Yellowstone Park contains the best known example of a "fossil forest." Here we find multiple levels of in situ trees. The upright trees at Specimen Ridge are rooted in fine-grained tuffaceous sandstone and encased in conglomeratic mudflows. The grain size of the conglomerate decreases away from the location of the volcanic source areas, the East and West Absaroka belts. Also, the ratio of upright, in situ trees to horizontal trees increases away from the Eocene volcanic source areas - the eruptions and mud flows flattened whole forests proximal to the source, while many trees are preserved in growth position in more distal locations, such as at Specimen Ridge. Although it is unclear how many successive forest layers are present in the Lamar River Formation, estimates range from 9-12 for Specimen Ridge. Some of the levels have very wide and old trees trunks.

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9-12 SUCCESSIVE forest layers. The roots of the in situ trees are in fine grained tuffaceous sandstone & NOT the conglomerate that lays atop each horizon.There are several other examples at the website, above.That's enough for now.Now. How is it possible to get any of the above during a catastrophic flood? Paleosols are far from rare, after all.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"Fossil forests throughout the GC......?"
--I don't think there is much conflict between the presence of fossil forests in the GC as flood deposited. A brief description of the Miocene fossil forest in Vantage, east-central Washington is one example. Fluid lavas originating from a hot-spot in the area whose lavas and eruptions would have been similar to those which currently occur at the Kilauea volcano on the island of Hawaii. There are many multitudes of lava flows which occurred in the area, 5 of which contributed major quantities of lava.

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Yes, and over how many years? What does this have to do with a flood anyway?

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--There are continued in the fossil successions, several species of trees which are more commonly found in eastern North America today, such as hickory, oak, walnut, beech, elm, and ash, plus some species which are now only located in eastern Asia, such as Chinese walnut and katsura. For explanation for why some petrified wood deposits contain remnants of trees from diverse habitats, mainstream theories may range around something such as a lake which had formed where ancestral Columbia river was blocked by lava flows or large mudflows from erupting cascade volcanoes. Logs from the forests, in theory, were swept away by the river and carried to this lake where large rafts were formed on the surface and bottom. This does not seem to conflict with such a floods occurrence and may even be expected as the enormous quantities of wood trees would be transported to diverse areas. The series of eruptions spreading across the landscape rather than destroying the trees, entombed them because they were waterlogged. Eruptive intercessions would either allow more trees for the process to begin again, and/or the large rafts of trees would become the next victim of entombment. After the cascade range began to rise again, there would no longer be successive forests without hydrodynamic transportation of wood. The range uplift to where it may not again be submerged.
--The Vantage logs were deposited in a water environment from their water-worn appearances which also indicate a transportation of the materials. Logs are typically found in horizontal orientations indicating this is the case as well as being concentrated there.

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Yes, some logs are transported. Often by streams. As your reference implies, it is possible to tell when this has happened.

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--While this is not the only existing diagnostic conclusion from from interpreting the data, I argue that it allows for such a deposition.

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And, therefor, all logs are transported. Moreover, all logs are transported by flood waters. Please do a logic check on this before proceeding.

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--Anyways, the initial question was directed toward Buddika so I await his argument to be presented as well.

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Sure. Ask someone who apparently dropped in for a quick comment and ignore the folks who have been asking you questions all along. If Buddika comes back, I am sure that you will find him asking the same questions you have been asked by the regulars on this board. But probably not with the same delicacy...[This message has been edited by edge, 10-07-2002]

bump.......------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

"bump......."
--My brief recent absence is due to class finals/exams and the address of 2-3 threads on the board including yours and edge. Though the opportunity which Quetzal gave in another thread for a ToE alternative paper (another one of my recent 'projects'), sadly, may not be completed in time for its submission(I expect it will be a continued interest so, maybe next year?). Unfortunate to apparently see Buddika desist from here. My commentaries will be posted shortly.------------------

--Of course computer troubles are always a drawback too! Working on it... :\.------------------