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Author Topic:   The Nativity Accounts of Luke and Matthew (continued from The Inerrancy of the Bible)
PaulK
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Message 1 of 6 (179227)
01-21-2005 3:38 AM


This is primarily a reply to the parts of message 292

I intend to discuss other aspects as well, includig the differences between the two accounts.

The Res Gestae is short and a translation may be found online here

http://classics.mit.edu/Augustus/deeds.html

It does refer to a census held by Augustus - the lustrum census of Roman citizens. Joseph was not Roman citizens and so would not be included.

quote:

8. When I was consul the fifth time (29 B.C.E.), I increased the number of patricians by order of the people and senate. I read the roll of the senate three times, and in my sixth consulate (28 B.C.E.) I made a census of the people with Marcus Agrippa as my colleague. I conducted a lustrum, after a forty-one year gap, in which lustrum were counted 4,063,000 heads of Roman citizens. Then again, with consular imperium I conducted a lustrum alone when Gaius Censorinus and Gaius Asinius were consuls (8 B.C.E.), in which lustrum were counted 4,233,000 heads of Roman citizens. And the third time, with consular imperium, I conducted a lustrum with my son Tiberius Caesar as colleague, when Sextus Pompeius and Sextus Appuleius were consuls (14 A.C.E.), in which lustrum were cunted 4,937,000 of the heads of Roman citizens.


(The dates are added by the translator)

The passage referred to by Miller is

quote:

35. When I administered my thirteenth consulate (2 B.C.E.), the senate and Equestrian order and Roman people all called me father of the country, and voted that the same be inscribed in the vestibule of my temple, in the Julian senate-house, and in the forum of Augustus under the chariot which had been placed there for me by a decision of the senate. When I wrote this I was seventy-six years old.

This does not refer to a census but to a vote. A vote of the citizens of Rome. This cannot be Luke's census which is linked not to a vote but to taxation and which applies to people who are not Roman citizens.

This message has been edited by PaulK, 01-21-2005 03:46 AM


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ramoss, posted 01-21-2005 11:25 AM PaulK has not yet responded
 Message 4 by Incognito, posted 01-24-2005 12:54 AM PaulK has responded

  
AdminNosy
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Message 2 of 6 (179300)
01-21-2005 11:02 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
ramoss
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Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 3 of 6 (179312)
01-21-2005 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
01-21-2005 3:38 AM


Nice source.. Thanks for the link and the synopsis.

This message is a reply to:
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Incognito
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 6 (180085)
01-24-2005 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
01-21-2005 3:38 AM


Why is it not a census?
PaulK, sorry, am concentrating on the "inerrancy 2" forum for the moment. But seriously, why can't this vote be a census? To vote, you essentially have to register in the same way you'd have to register for a census. Both would require a person to go back to their hometown and register (you couldn't mail an absentee ballot back then). The Herod kingdom was a tributary state of Rome anyways, a census on tributary nations is not out of the question. Have any idea who's running elections in Afghanistan and Iraq? (U.S./U.N.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 01-21-2005 3:38 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by lfen, posted 01-24-2005 1:16 AM Incognito has not yet responded
 Message 6 by PaulK, posted 01-24-2005 2:50 AM Incognito has not yet responded

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 3014 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 5 of 6 (180089)
01-24-2005 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Incognito
01-24-2005 12:54 AM


Re: Why is it not a census?
Have any idea who's running elections in Afghanistan and Iraq? (U.S./U.N.)

Incog,

You crack me up! That is hilarious :laugh:

I suppose we could take a census and start taxing 'em. We'd probably spend more than we could recoup though. This is so funny!

lfen


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PaulK
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Posts: 15627
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 6 of 6 (180103)
01-24-2005 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Incognito
01-24-2005 12:54 AM


Re: Why is it not a census?
Neither Joseph nor Mary would have been eligible to vote so your "explanation" fails automatically.

In fact there were censuses to determine eligibility - the lustrum censuses already mentioned. So your "explanation" faile on yet another point. There's no need of a census for this vote.

And finally according to Luke Joseph's home town was Nazareth, in Galilee and the census was for tax purposes. So your "explanation" assumes two errors in Luke.

And both sorts of census are out of the question in a tributary nation which has few Roman citizens to be counted and is not part of the Roman tax system.

And I regret to inform you that the U.S. occupation in Afghanistan and Iraq did not made Afghans or Iraqis eligible to vote in the U.S. presidential election. So your attempt to draw a parallel there also fails to support your case.


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