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Author Topic:   Is God All Loving? Does the bible support Inclusion (Universalism)?
soljafolife
Inactive Junior Member


Message 1 of 17 (78351)
01-14-2004 7:13 AM


Hi all! I'm new to this particular forum, but I've been reading your comment's, and I've also made a few, and no one has given me a real reason to stop believing that God is not going to save everyone, eventually. Yes, I said it, which would also imply that we humans do not have "free will". By the way, I am a christian.
I've posted a message on a few threads, and I'll put it on here as well, just so you know where I'm coming from. Remember, I'm only looking for the truth, so if you have it, or think that you do, please share. Here's what I've been posting on other threads:

About this "free-will" discussion: There are too many
scriptures in the OT and NT that refute such an idea, plus, it just
wouldn't make sense.

Keep in mind that I'm a christian, lol(seriously!).

People always say that "God will never force himself on
anyone", and in the same breath make the statement, "God is
All-Powerful". So let me ask you all a question. If God is ALL
powerful, then that would mean that no one else has any power,
correct?
The word "all" is one of the strongest words in the english
language. It's right up there with the word's "yes" and
"no" and "everything" and "nowhere" and
"none"................the word "all" is an
absolute word, meaning that it's all-inclusive, there's nothing left
out of the word "all". I once told this to someone and they
told me that the word "all" wasn't absolute, but a
mysterious word. I wanted to kick my computer when he typed that in.
People, christians, religous people try to make everything so
spiritual and deep, but there's nothing deep about the word
"all". For example, if you have a bag of chips, and I ask
you to give me "all" of your chips, and you give me two
chips, well then, YOU DIDN'T GIVE ME WHAT I ASKED FOR, DID YOU!
Therefore, I conclude that the word "all" is an absolute
word.
Now that that point has been made, back to the original one I was
trying to make.
If God is ALL powerful, like some proclaim that he is, then that
would mean that no one else has any power, because he has
"all" of it, and to say that God won't force himself on you
is just preposterous (hope I spelled that right, lol), because to say
that the same God that you proclaim to have ALL power has to force
ANYTHING to happen would be a contradiction. To say that God forces
ANYTHING is to say that there is ANOTHER force in the universe
capable of giving the ALL powerful being resistance, but, because he
is the force that causes all other forces to be, it's no longer a
matter of forcing, but of his will being accomplished!
The longer you think about it, free will can't exist, because if it
truly existed you could choose not to die!, but we know that it is
appointed to each man once to die (Heb.9:27).....For in Adam
"ALL" died (1Cor.15:22), so there's no escaping that.
According to the bible, your already dead, if you want to be
technical (how do you escape that reality if you have a free moral
agency?)
You know, it's hilarious, and at the same time sickening to realize
that the ones who go to the scriptures to justify their claims of
"free thought", otherwise none as "free moral
agency", they'll skip over completely the verses, scriptures,
even whole chapters that condradict their beliefs. I was brought up
to believe that the bible never, ever condradicted itself, that it
never cancelled itself out. I've not always agreed with the things
that I've written to this forum (whoever "chooses" to read
it), but I'll say this, that if your going to use a scripture, then
it most stand at FULL STRENGTH, regardless of what the others
scriptures say, because each scripture MUST be in perfect harmony one
with another. If not, then the book is a lie, and if I ever find that
out (which I know I won't) I'll quit just as soon as I do. You can't
pick and choose which scriptures you want, and which ones you don't.
It's the whole book, or none of it, if your going to call yourself a
christian.

This is a message I wrote to a friend, not specifically about
"free-will", but definitely in direct relation. It`s
foolish for us to assume that we can do anything independent of God
the Father. The word "free" by definition means "not
controlled by obligation or the will of another", or, "not
disturbed by any outside influences", this would include the
influence of God also. If we were really "free" then there
would be no point in praying for anyone, since God himself couldn`t
influence them (and he`s All-Powerful). If we were truly
"free" then we could choose to see the truth, whether, or
not God wanted us to, but it`s evident that only God can open the
eyes of the blind (Deut.29:4), so if he never opens your eyes you`ll
never see! Some will say that God gives you a choice, then, if you
pick the right one, he`ll influence you to live out that choice, but
that wouldn`t even be consistent with scripture. Sure, God sets
choices in front of us, just as Pharoah, but the choice i
s already made, for the works were finished from the foundation of
the world (age-Greek), which is found in Heb.4:3. Also, he has
declared the end from the beginning, and from ancient times, the
things that are not yet done, saying my counsel shall stand, and I
will do all my pleasure (Isa.46:9-11). There`s so much the scriptures
say refuting the false notion of free will that I would be typing for
hours, so before you read what I told my friend I`ll say one more
thing; Everyone has a heart, and the heart is the will of the man (or
woman), but God fashions the heart (Psa.33:15), so then EVERYTHING
that is in the will of the man to do is because God made it
so...........Enjoy!

Anyway, so you know, I believe that eventually, God shall recieve the
restitution of All things (Acts.3:19-21) in the dispensation of the
fulness of times (Eph.1:10), and when that happens, God shall be All
in All (1Cor.15:28). For no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by
the Holy Ghost (Spirit--same thing, 1Cor.12:3), and eventually, At
the name of Jesus Every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and
things in earth, and things under the earth;And that Every tongue
shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Phil.2:9-11). I can see that
your intelligent, I just hope that you don`t assume that I`m saying
anything, because most do (I`m not saying you are though). Just for
clarification purposes, I never said that there wasn`t a Hell, or a
Lake of Fire, or that sinners were not going to be in them. Likewise,
I never asserted that Jesus Christ wasn`t the only way to the Father
(John.14:6), what I am saying though, is that All have sinned and
come short of God`s glory (Rom.3:23) an
d we that we are saved by grace through faith; and that not of
yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should
boast (Eph.2:8,9), because if we couldn`t come to Jesus, unless God
the Father was drawing us (John.6:44), then we shouldn`t be bragging
anyway, because if we could`ve come to Jesus without the Father's
draw, then we would be
free, and Jesus would also be a liar, but we know that neither of
these statements are true, because no one can resist the Will of God
(Rom.9:19).
I`m not trying to preach to you, I`m just expressing what I believe
God has revealed to me. If I`m wrong, then I pray that God open my
eyes to the truth, for only he can open the eyes of the blind
(Deut.29:4), and If I`m right, then All the glory goes to God. With
that said, allow me to speak openly about the
scriptures..............................If in this life only we have
hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ
risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the
dead. For as in Adam All die, even so in Christ shall All be made
alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ`s at his coming. Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;
when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For
he (Jesus) must reign, till he (God the Father) hath put all enemie
s under his (Jesus') feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is
death. For he (God the Father) hath put all things under his (Jesus)
feet. But when he (God the Father) saith, All things are put under
him (Jesus), it is manifest that he (God the Father) is excepted,
which did put all things under him (Jesus). And when All things shall
be subdued unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son also himself be
subject unto him (God the Father), that God may be All in All
(1Cor.15:19-28).
You see, the word "restitution" literally means, by
definition, to return to the rightful owner All that was taken away,
lost, or surrendered, and Jesus came to seek and to save that which
was lost (Luke.19:10), and He can`t fail, for God is Love (1
John.4:8), it`s not an attribute (Love) of God, it`s what he is, and
Love (Charity) never fails (1Cor.13:8), it`s impossible, because He`s
All-Powerful. That`s also why he can`t lie, because how can you lie
when everything you say is becomes the truth, even if God tried (even
though an All powerful being doesn't try, or want, just does!) to
spread a rumor, as soon as he spoke it, as a matter of fact, as soon
as he thought it, it would become truth! He said let there be light,
and boom!, there it was. So since God is All-Powerful, then whatever
he wants to happen will happen, which means that if God want`s
something to happen, then it`s impossible for anyone to stop it,
likewise if He doesn`t want something to happen it`s impossibl
e for anyone to accomplish it, because He`s All-Powerful. So if God
isn`t willing that anyone perish (2 Pet.3:9)...........how can it
happen?

Listen, God can`t fail, and to fail literally means to "miss the
mark", which translated from the Greek is defined by one word,
"Sin". We know that there is no sin in God, because God
can`t fail, so, with that being said, If Jesus said "If I be
lifted up from the earth (which he has been) I`ll draw all men unto
me" (John.12:32), and all men haven`t been drawn to him, in fact
I`ll go further, All HAVEN`T heard of Christ, plenty have passed on
without hearing of Him. He told the disciples to "Go ye into all
the world, and preach the gospel to every creature"
(Mark.16:15), and while it`s obvious that he said that, it`s also
abundantly clear that knowledge was still limited at the time,
because the Apostles didn`t have access to automobiles, planes,
telephones, pagers, the internet, etc. The printing press, which was
invented by Johann Gutenberg, wasn`t available, until the year 1450.
So, if God (who is All-Loving) can`t fail, and he made that statement
in John.12:32, and MOST ha
ve passed on without even hearing of Christ, then that Must mean
that he will draw All, eventually, every man in his own order
(1Cor.15.23). I know that I`ve written a lot, but trust me, there`s
much, much more. Please tell me what you think...........and if this
is not making any sense, please tell what you think of this passage
of scripture: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for
the manisfestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made
subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath
subjected the same in hope; Because the creature itself also shall be
delievered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty
of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth
and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but
ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we
ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit,
the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hop
e: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth
he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with
patience wait for it (Rom.8:19-25). Just a side note, when it says
"the whole creation" in ver.8 and when it says "the
creature" in verses.19, 20, 21, these are literally translated
as the words "every creature" as is illustrated in
Mark.16:15 and Col.1:23. The words "to wit" in ver.23
simply means "in other words", and just so there`s no
confusion, you can substitute the word "liberty" in ver.21
for the word "freedom" (they`re synonymous terms). Anyway,
please write back, I`d love to hear what you think, until then,
Peace!


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminBrian, posted 01-14-2004 7:16 AM soljafolife has responded

  
AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 17 (78353)
01-14-2004 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by soljafolife
01-14-2004 7:13 AM


HI Solja,

What seems to be the problem Solja, is there any particular reason why your are opening the same thread in different forums?

AdminBrian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by soljafolife, posted 01-14-2004 7:13 AM soljafolife has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by soljafolife, posted 01-14-2004 7:17 AM AdminBrian has responded

  
soljafolife
Inactive Junior Member


Message 3 of 17 (78354)
01-14-2004 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminBrian
01-14-2004 7:16 AM


Oh, I'm sorry, I can't do that? I'm new, if I'm not supposed to do that, I'll take them down, sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminBrian, posted 01-14-2004 7:16 AM AdminBrian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by AdminBrian, posted 01-14-2004 7:20 AM soljafolife has responded

  
AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 17 (78355)
01-14-2004 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by soljafolife
01-14-2004 7:17 AM


HI,

It is no problem, I thought perhaps you were having difficulties.

If you could decided which forum you would like to keep your topic in, I suggest this one, and delete the others I would very much appreciate it.

Thankyou very much for your help, if you have any further questions I would be happy to assist.

AdminBrian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by soljafolife, posted 01-14-2004 7:17 AM soljafolife has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by soljafolife, posted 01-14-2004 7:21 AM AdminBrian has not yet responded
 Message 6 by soljafolife, posted 01-14-2004 7:24 AM AdminBrian has responded

  
soljafolife
Inactive Junior Member


Message 5 of 17 (78356)
01-14-2004 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminBrian
01-14-2004 7:20 AM


I've already deleted the other ones, thanks man!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AdminBrian, posted 01-14-2004 7:20 AM AdminBrian has not yet responded

  
soljafolife
Inactive Junior Member


Message 6 of 17 (78358)
01-14-2004 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminBrian
01-14-2004 7:20 AM


Ok, lol, little bit of a problem, I thought I deleted them, but I didn't. I obviously don't know how. How do I do it? (faith and belief, evolution).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AdminBrian, posted 01-14-2004 7:20 AM AdminBrian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by AdminBrian, posted 01-14-2004 7:27 AM soljafolife has responded

  
AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 17 (78359)
01-14-2004 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by soljafolife
01-14-2004 7:24 AM


It is ok, I will close the faith and belief one and the other admins will deal with their own forums.

Thanks again for you help here.

AdminBrian


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by soljafolife, posted 01-14-2004 7:24 AM soljafolife has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by soljafolife, posted 01-14-2004 7:27 AM AdminBrian has not yet responded
 Message 9 by soljafolife, posted 01-14-2004 7:34 AM AdminBrian has not yet responded

  
soljafolife
Inactive Junior Member


Message 8 of 17 (78360)
01-14-2004 7:27 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by AdminBrian
01-14-2004 7:27 AM


Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by AdminBrian, posted 01-14-2004 7:27 AM AdminBrian has not yet responded

  
soljafolife
Inactive Junior Member


Message 9 of 17 (78365)
01-14-2004 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by AdminBrian
01-14-2004 7:27 AM


How do I get all these messages off my thread, the delete button isn't working, I'm trying to get the ones of you, and me talking off of it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by AdminBrian, posted 01-14-2004 7:27 AM AdminBrian has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Newborn, posted 01-14-2004 3:52 PM soljafolife has responded

  
Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 17 (78457)
01-14-2004 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by soljafolife
01-14-2004 7:34 AM


Here is my opinion:
First,God gives us an OPORTUNITY.
In that oportunity he proposes many EVENTS to us (QUANTUM STATES).
In our HEARTS(SOUL) we CHOICE an ATTITUDE.
God looks at the attitude and dependant of the attitude he decides what event our body will pass through(and the additional spiritual bless to give us).That´s all.
The capital letters words are the Keywords.
What is an opportunity? I will explain with an example.
Suppose that you are sleeping.You then don´t have free will have you?
But sometimes when you are awaked you have.That interval of time is named an opportunity and is given by God.You only can have a choice in an opportunity.
I think you know the meaning of the other words.If don´t, reply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by soljafolife, posted 01-14-2004 7:34 AM soljafolife has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by soljafolife, posted 01-15-2004 2:59 AM Newborn has responded

  
soljafolife
Inactive Junior Member


Message 11 of 17 (78574)
01-15-2004 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Newborn
01-14-2004 3:52 PM


Absolute Will
I see what your saying Newborn, but the Bible specifically speaks of Predestination (Eph.1:5,11). The translation of "predestination" from the greek means "to be limited in advance". We can say what we want about choice, but our choices have already been chosen. It's all apart of the plan. Every choice you make is apart of the plan. Even the choices that we think that we're making contrary to the plan are all apart of the plan, because God is All powerful, and because of that, No One Can Resist His Will (Rom.9:23).
And, if predestinated, then there's nothing we can do about it. Even the unbelievers, for they're choices too have been declared from the foundation of the earth (1Pet.2:4; Jude.4; Heb.4:3). Meaning also, that we don't have anything to do with it, so if that's the case, then that means that God has to take totally resposibility, for how else can he recieve All the glory, unless he was totally responsible; For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth (Rom.9:11).
He is All powerful.
And, since God hath concluded All in unbelief, he shall have mercy upon the EXACT SAME ALL (Rom.11:32). Peace and Love!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Newborn, posted 01-14-2004 3:52 PM Newborn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Newborn, posted 01-17-2004 3:27 PM soljafolife has responded

  
Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 17 (79078)
01-17-2004 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by soljafolife
01-15-2004 2:59 AM


Re: Absolute Will
But the Devil is predestined to go to Hell.Don´t it mades God unfair?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by soljafolife, posted 01-15-2004 2:59 AM soljafolife has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by soljafolife, posted 01-19-2004 3:21 PM Newborn has not yet responded

  
soljafolife
Inactive Junior Member


Message 13 of 17 (79442)
01-19-2004 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Newborn
01-17-2004 3:27 PM


Re: Absolute Will
Not necessarily, because we understand that before the foundation of this world, God was, and so were His angels. We understand by reading that prophets that Lucifer was at one time, as my friends would put it, cool. He was just chillin, flying around praising God, then he fell, or got dropped, as my friends would put it. Now, if we can understand that (and I know I'll lose people on this), then we should be able to understand that eventually, God will restore All, including Satan, because "The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us" (Eccl.1:9,10).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Newborn, posted 01-17-2004 3:27 PM Newborn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Smitty500, posted 02-13-2004 9:50 PM soljafolife has not yet responded

  
Smitty500
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 17 (86194)
02-13-2004 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by soljafolife
01-19-2004 3:21 PM


Re: Absolute Will
You can say predestination has already made our choices for us or look at it this way. Which in my opinion makes more sense.This is just an illustration Imagine you are God and can travel forward and backward in time. Now you go to the time when the book is written(the Book of LIfe) then you go back to the time when you left. Now God knows the names of people who will be in hell and those who will be in heaven. He hasn't made any choices just taken a "sneak peak". Every person has many choices to make but this one is the most important one anyone will ever make.
God definately has a plan but if you feel God calling on your heart than accept him at face value. I don't think he won't accept you because it wasn't part of his plan. If you don't accept him for your whole life than obviously it was part of his plan. And yes are choices are made by God for us but hey it's part of a Great plan.

Now to say that everyone will be restored contradicts the bible in many places. Here is one example. John 5:29 "and come out-- those who have odne good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." Condemned to be restored? no. JOhn 5:40 "Yet you refuse to come to me to have life" This shows two things, one that we have a choice and two that there is eternal life and there is an eternal death. One cannot assume that he is talking about physical life, most of the apostles were martyred and the bible would speak about their resurrection in the flesh if it were so. To think that Satan will be restored is also not biblical look at Revelation chapter 20. The one section of the chapter is titled Satan's Doom 20:10 And the devil, who decieved them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Thanx
God Bless

[This message has been edited by Smitty500, 02-13-2004]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by soljafolife, posted 01-19-2004 3:21 PM soljafolife has not yet responded

  
kendemyer
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 17 (89632)
03-01-2004 5:33 PM


re: universalism is not Biblically supported
Here is why Universalism is not Biblically supported:

Matthew 26:24 "The Son of Man goes, as it is written of Him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be good for that man if he had not been born."

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8)

Sincerely,

Ken


  
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