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Author Topic:   For Wolf - Prophecy, Coincidence, or Made Up?
Tal
Member (Idle past 3931 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 1 of 113 (231405)
08-09-2005 1:44 PM


Well here goes. We actually had a sermon this Sunday, and some if it was about why we believe the bible to be the Word of God. I beleive the bible is the Word of God because of the overwhelming evidence that supports it. This evidence can be broken down into 5 categories:

1. Authorship
2. Manuscripts
3. History
4. Archeology
5. Prophecy

Let's take a look at prophecy that specifically applied to Jesus.

I'll only list the concrete verses as opposed to the "He would come with authority into the temple" which, while I believe Jesus fulfilled, I don't think it is going be of any analytical use to you.

Prophecies of the messiah and how Jesus fulfilled them.

Enter Jerusalem on a donkey. Zechariah 9:9

Fulfilled in Matthew 21:1-11

Be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2

Fulfilled in Matthew 2:1

Be hated without cause Isaiah 49:7 and Psalms 69:4

Fulfilled in John 15: 24,25

Be undesired and rejected by his own people Psalms 69:8

Fulfilled in Mark 6:3

Be betrayed by a friend Psalms 41:9

Fulfilled in Matthew 26:21-25

Be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver Zachariah 11:12

Fulfilled in Matthew 26:15

Have his price given for a potters field Zachariah 11:13

Fulfilled in Matthew 27:7

Be struck on the cheek Micah 5:1

Fulfilled in Matthew 27:30

Be spat on Isaiah 50:6

Fulfilled in Matthew 36:67

Be mocked Psalms 22:7-8

Fulfilled in Matthew 27:31

Be beaten Isaiah 50:6

Fulfilled in Matthew 26:67

Be thirsty during his execution Psalms 22:15

Fulfilled in John 19:28

Be given vinegar to quench his thirst Psalms 69:21

Fulfilled in Matthew 27:34

Be buried with the rich when dead Isaiah 53:9

Fulfilled in Matthew 27: 57-60

Evil people would pierce his hands and feet Psalms 22:16

Fulfilled in Luke 23:3

He would suffer execution but without the breaking of any of His bones Pslams 34:20

Fulfilled in John 19:33-36

Others would gamble for his clothes Psalms 22:18

Fulfilled in John 19:23,24

These are mostly about the death of Jesus and precise details surrounding it. There are many more prophecies which have a theological relevance, but little relevance to anyone simply looking for "evidence." Keep in mind that the individual books of the bible were written by many different people over thousands of years, yet it tells one cohesive story about the fall and redemption of man.Who wrote the bible?.

You can look at this in a few different ways. You can say that the authors of the gospels or Jesus simply studied the old testament and attempted to fulfill them or write them into their story. You can say Jesus never really existed and the whole thing is either totally or partially made up. Or you can say it is all coincidence, and that people looked through the OT to find obscure passages that seemed to apply to Jesus' life and deaht. I doubt the roman soldiers were attempting to fulfill hebrew scripture about the messiah though.

I think the greatest evidence is the bible itself. "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever." 1 Peter 1:24-26

Indeed it has stood the test of time. We can do 1-4 if you are still interested.


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 08-09-2005 1:58 PM Tal has responded
 Message 4 by Chiroptera, posted 08-09-2005 2:00 PM Tal has responded
 Message 23 by ramoss, posted 08-09-2005 2:59 PM Tal has responded
 Message 34 by Wolf, posted 08-09-2005 4:00 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 53 by jar, posted 08-09-2005 6:52 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 63 by Wolf, posted 08-10-2005 10:17 AM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 65 by jar, posted 08-10-2005 10:39 AM Tal has responded
 Message 80 by jar, posted 08-10-2005 3:34 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 86 by jar, posted 08-11-2005 9:51 AM Tal has responded

    
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 556 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 2 of 113 (231408)
08-09-2005 1:48 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Brian
Member (Idle past 3213 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 113 (231417)
08-09-2005 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
08-09-2005 1:44 PM


What is the attraction for circular reasoning?
I think you will find that every single 'fulfilled' prophecy you listed, apart from many being taken out of context, is a victim of circular reasoning.

Using one part of a book to 'prove' another part of the same book is plain silly.

For example, 'Born in Bethlehem' Micah 5:2, tell me Tal, how do you know Jesus was born in Bethlehem?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 1:44 PM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 2:04 PM Brian has not yet responded
 Message 6 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 2:04 PM Brian has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 4 of 113 (231420)
08-09-2005 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
08-09-2005 1:44 PM


quote:
...the whole thing is either totally or partially made up.

Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 1:44 PM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 2:08 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
CK
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 5 of 113 (231422)
08-09-2005 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
08-09-2005 1:58 PM


Re: What is the attraction for circular reasoning?
quote:
I think the greatest evidence is the bible itself. "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever." 1 Peter 1:24-26

Brian - this really sums it up - the bible is the best evidence that the claims in the bible are true.

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 09-Aug-2005 02:08 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 08-09-2005 1:58 PM Brian has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 2:06 PM CK has not yet responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3931 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 6 of 113 (231423)
08-09-2005 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
08-09-2005 1:58 PM


Re: What is the attraction for circular reasoning?
You don't look like Wolf.

Brian, using one part of the book to prove another is your view and seems silly to you. So be it.

I see it as a true story over hundreds of years of text from different authors that has a climax in the gospels in the form of the story of Jesus.

If you don't believe Jesus existed, great.


"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 08-09-2005 1:58 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 2:09 PM Tal has responded
 Message 16 by Brian, posted 08-09-2005 2:18 PM Tal has not yet responded
 Message 22 by Rahvin, posted 08-09-2005 2:58 PM Tal has not yet responded

    
Tal
Member (Idle past 3931 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 7 of 113 (231424)
08-09-2005 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by CK
08-09-2005 2:04 PM


Re: What is the attraction for circular reasoning?
Brian - this really sums it up - the bible is the best evidence that the claims in the bible are as true.

Charles, I'll do 1-4 if Wolf wants to, after Wolf responds to 5.


"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 2:04 PM CK has not yet responded

    
ConsequentAtheist
Member (Idle past 4492 days)
Posts: 392
Joined: 05-28-2003


Message 8 of 113 (231425)
08-09-2005 2:07 PM


Tal,

First of all, thank you for taking the time to express your position so clearly. It is certainly true that, so long as one views the New Testament accounts as accurate history, it is very difficult to interpret many "Old Testament" verses as anything other than prophecy.

But Tal, many of us do not view the New Testament accounts as accurate history but, rather, as fiction and legend written many decades after the presumed events. From our standpoint, there is nothing at all mysterious or difficult about forging a narrative to look like prophecy fulfilled.

What makes this view ever more compelling is the fact that a common form of Jewish story-telling at the time (salled Midrash) can be characterized as parable using the Tanach (the Jewish scriptures) as prooftext. There is no prophecy. There is only late 1st century story-telling, and most of it is not done very well at all.

This message has been edited by ConsequentAtheist, 08-09-2005 02:10 PM


  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3931 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 9 of 113 (231428)
08-09-2005 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Chiroptera
08-09-2005 2:00 PM


Wow...alot of people in here that aren't wolf.


"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Chiroptera, posted 08-09-2005 2:00 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 08-09-2005 2:13 PM Tal has responded

    
CK
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 10 of 113 (231429)
08-09-2005 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Tal
08-09-2005 2:04 PM


Re: What is the attraction for circular reasoning?
quote:
You don't look like Wolf.

And this thread does not look like it's a great debate - so I fail to see what your point to Brian is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 2:04 PM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 2:12 PM CK has responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3931 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 11 of 113 (231431)
08-09-2005 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by CK
08-09-2005 2:09 PM


Re: What is the attraction for circular reasoning?
Then stop replying. Wolf said he was interested in seeing this information.

This message has been edited by Tal, 08-09-2005 02:13 PM


"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 2:09 PM CK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 2:14 PM Tal has responded

    
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6800
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 7.1


Message 12 of 113 (231432)
08-09-2005 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tal
08-09-2005 2:08 PM


It happens when one posts on a public message board instead of something private like, say, email. Funny, huh?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 2:08 PM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 2:16 PM Chiroptera has responded

  
CK
Member (Idle past 2381 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 13 of 113 (231434)
08-09-2005 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tal
08-09-2005 2:12 PM


Re: What is the attraction for circular reasoning?
And who the fuck are you to tell me what threads I can post on?

If you want a nice little chat with just the two of you - propose a great debate or take it to email. As it stands, it's fair game for all of us.

This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 09-Aug-2005 02:15 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 2:12 PM Tal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 2:18 PM CK has not yet responded

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 3931 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 14 of 113 (231437)
08-09-2005 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Chiroptera
08-09-2005 2:13 PM


It happens when one posts on a public message board instead of something private like, say, email. Funny, huh?

Look people, it isn't that difficult. The Admins told me to start a thread because Wolf asked for some information and what I posted in his "hi there" thread was off topic.

This is for Wolf, moved here by request of the Admins. Please stop spamming with drivel.


"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Chiroptera, posted 08-09-2005 2:13 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Chiroptera, posted 08-09-2005 2:19 PM Tal has responded

    
Tal
Member (Idle past 3931 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 15 of 113 (231438)
08-09-2005 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by CK
08-09-2005 2:14 PM


Re: What is the attraction for circular reasoning?
And who the fuck are you to tell me what threads I can post on?

Showing your age or mentality? It was a suggestion, not a command. If you don't like it, why post?


"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter
This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by CK, posted 08-09-2005 2:14 PM CK has not yet responded

    
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