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Author Topic:   How does God make this justice happen?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 544 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1 of 61 (452765)
01-31-2008 10:14 AM


How does God make this justice happen?

Genesis 4:15
And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Genesis 4:24
If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

If an unrepentant killer goes to hell forever and an unrepentant killer of a killer goes to hell forever, how then can the punishment that God promises be fulfilled?

How can God give punishment seven times forever or seventy times forever?

Regards
DL


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Raphael, posted 02-14-2008 10:38 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded
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 Message 10 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-18-2008 7:19 AM Greatest I am has responded
 Message 30 by kbertsche, posted 03-01-2008 12:04 PM Greatest I am has responded

    
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Message 2 of 61 (453044)
02-01-2008 9:58 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Raphael
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 3 of 61 (455999)
02-14-2008 10:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
01-31-2008 10:14 AM


GIA said:

If an unrepentant killer goes to hell forever and an unrepentant killer of a killer goes to hell forever, how then can the punishment that God promises be fulfilled?

First things first. Nobody goes to hell forever.Hell isnt evan a place. Its an event.

How can God give punishment seven times forever or seventy times forever?

He doesn't. You're not punished forever. Since nobody is punished forever, it must be referring to punishment while living. Or maybe he might just burn a few minutes or hours. Who knows.

Raph


Truth is still Truth, Weather One or a Thousand People believe it.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 01-31-2008 10:14 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by CK, posted 02-15-2008 7:48 AM Raphael has responded
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iano
Member (Idle past 105 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 4 of 61 (456037)
02-15-2008 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
01-31-2008 10:14 AM


How can God give punishment seven times forever or seventy times forever?

Imagine one of your toes being hit with a hammer on the hour every hour. Forever.

Imagine 7 of your toes being hit with a hammer on the hour every hour. Forever

Imagine 7 of your toes being hit on the half hour every half hour. Forever

Imagine 1 poke in the eye on the hour every hour equates to one hammer blow on the toe on the hour every hour.

Forever.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 01-31-2008 10:14 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
CK
Member (Idle past 2292 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 5 of 61 (456044)
02-15-2008 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Raphael
02-14-2008 10:38 PM


Can you explain further?
I'm not familar with your concept of (the christian) hell - I thought that it was a) a place and b) forever - like iano is explaining above when doing the usual ineffective threats of pain.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Raphael, posted 02-14-2008 10:38 PM Raphael has responded

Replies to this message:
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1808 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 6 of 61 (456045)
02-15-2008 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Raphael
02-14-2008 10:38 PM


Being a particularly inept speller, I'm not one for pointing out others' errors. But as it is in your signature, you may want to replace weather with whether.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Raphael, posted 02-14-2008 10:38 PM Raphael has not yet responded

  
Raphael
Member (Idle past 92 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 7 of 61 (456104)
02-15-2008 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by CK
02-15-2008 7:48 AM


Re: Can you explain further?
CK writes:

I'm not familar with your concept of (the christian) hell - I thought that it was a) a place and b) forever - like iano is explaining above when doing the usual ineffective threats of pain.

The popularly accepted version of hell in most of the Portestant and Catholic churches is that it lasts forever. This belief is completely contrary to what the Bible actually teaches. Hell is not a place. Hell does not last forever. The word "Hell" means "complete separation from God". Not "a place where you burn forever and ever because you were such a bad person." This is a lie that the Catholic Church has taught for a very long time, but it needs to be exposed. iano is probably a christian who accepts this teaching, and I don't blame him, but it is not the truth.

Being a particularly inept speller, I'm not one for pointing out others' errors. But as it is in your signature, you may want to replace weather with whether.

Thanks CD, I'll correct that immediately.

Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.


Truth is still Truth, Weather One or a Thousand People believe it.
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tesla
Member (Idle past 2222 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 8 of 61 (456386)
02-17-2008 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
01-31-2008 10:14 AM


Genesis 4:15
And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Genesis 4:24
If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

i see no mention of hell. just vengence

If an unrepentant killer goes to hell forever and an unrepentant killer of a killer goes to hell forever, how then can the punishment that God promises be fulfilled?

i agree with raphael. but im not sure what the seperation will mean for those seperated from the body of existence. (i guess to no longer exist)

Edited by tesla, : elaboration.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 01-31-2008 10:14 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 544 days)
Posts: 1423
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 9 of 61 (456459)
02-18-2008 7:06 AM


Raphael

You wrote
"Hell" means "complete separation from God".

If you follow the bible closely then this could be a good thing if your god is the genocidal maniac of the flood.

Regards
DL


Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Raphael, posted 02-19-2008 11:53 PM Greatest I am has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12414
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 10 of 61 (456460)
02-18-2008 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Greatest I am
01-31-2008 10:14 AM


The Pied Piper Of Believers
I don't understand how you can even start topics like this when:
  • You don't believe that jesus was God
  • You are agnostic at best concerning the existence of God
  • You don't believe in Angels or Demons.

    You will never get a group of people...particularly believers...to be able to prove God to you.

    At best, you will get various explanations of dogma and teaching that support the beliefs.

    As the pied piper, where are you attempting to lead us with your Q & A topics?

    Perhaps I should ask you a couple of questions.

    1) Is it possible that God exists and is independent of human understanding and comprehension?

    2) Can you see how there are some things in this universe that human wisdom and understanding cannot comprehend?

    3) Having known these things, why do you keep picking on believers as if they were lab rats? I for one will not attempt to logically define God for in so doing, I limit my understanding of Him. It is not good for my belief. ;)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Greatest I am, posted 01-31-2008 10:14 AM Greatest I am has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by Greatest I am, posted 02-18-2008 9:27 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

      
  • Greatest I am
    Member (Idle past 544 days)
    Posts: 1423
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 11 of 61 (456478)
    02-18-2008 9:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 10 by Thugpreacha
    02-18-2008 7:19 AM


    Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
    Phat

    I am more of the old Gnostic persuasion.
    I believe that all of us have a direct access to God and do not need a hybrid Jesus/God to interfere with our direct access.

    If Jesus is God then how can He say that we have to go through Him to get to God. Sounds stupid does it not?

    As to all the supernatural mumbo jumbo.
    God has a hard enough time showing us His philosophy without having snakes, fish, angels and demons cluttering up reality and speaking to us.

    If God wanted us to believe in such miracles then He would have left an irrefutable one for us to ponder. Wouldn’t you if you had the power? I think anyone would for the proof that so many search for.

    You wrote
    “You will never get a group of people...particularly believers...to be able to prove God to you.”

    You are correct here. There is only one proof and those that seek will find it. Ask and it shall be given, comes to mind.
    I asked the right way and I have received. God is real but most Christians and others have no clue to His perfection and do not allow Him this fundamental characteristic.
    They believe in a limited God where He has no limits.

    You wrote
    “As the pied piper, where are you attempting to lead us with your Q & A topics?

    I wish to lead people to the recognition that God works in a logical way and that those who come out of Genesis believing in talking snakes will never understand God’s logic.
    Eve and Adam were not cast out of the garden. They leapt to a higher perfection and provided man with a history.

    You wrote
    “1) Is it possible that God exists and is independent of human understanding and comprehension?”

    God exists and if we are in His image, and we are, then all that He knows we can understand. He tells us this in Genesis. To be as Gods, knowing good and evil.
    It is His desire to teach us. No mysteries allowed as lazy minded fundamentalists think.

    You wrote
    “ 2) Can you see how there are some things in this universe that human wisdom and understanding cannot comprehend?”

    No. Give me an example of what we cannot comprehend.

    You wrote
    “ 3) Having known these things, why do you keep picking on believers as if they were lab rats? I for one will not attempt to logically define God for in so doing, I limit my understanding of Him. It is not good for my belief.”

    I do not (know these things) the way you do. If you cannot logically define God then how can anyone believe your illogical position. It is dumb to try to sell an illogical idea.
    As to the Christian rats, I try to convert them to a God that is a winner and perfect.
    Not the loser that the Bible portrays. A God that cannot get out of Heaven without flaws and evil. A God that brings this evil to earth and pits it against an innocent Eve. A God that has failed mankind and instead of killing only two in the beginning waits for millions to be on earth and then kills all but eight in a genocidal flood all in the name of Love.

    He is not the genocidal maniac that the Bible shows. I want people to recognize this.

    Pray with me for success.

    Regards
    DL


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by Thugpreacha, posted 02-18-2008 7:19 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by willietdog, posted 02-20-2008 1:39 AM Greatest I am has responded

        
    Raphael
    Member (Idle past 92 days)
    Posts: 134
    Joined: 09-29-2007


    Message 12 of 61 (456768)
    02-19-2008 11:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Greatest I am
    02-18-2008 7:06 AM


    If you follow the bible closely then this could be a good thing if your god is the genocidal maniac of the flood.

    Oh? I guess i see where you're coming from. God is not the God most of Christianity portrays him to be. Rather, an almost completely differnt entity altogether. One of Love and acceptance, not ...pointless punishments...and...refusal of inadequacy.

    Raph

    Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.


    Truth is still Truth, Whether One or a Thousand People believe it.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Greatest I am, posted 02-18-2008 7:06 AM Greatest I am has not yet responded

      
    willietdog
    Inactive Member


    Message 13 of 61 (456776)
    02-20-2008 1:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 11 by Greatest I am
    02-18-2008 9:27 AM


    Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
    quote:
    If Jesus is God then how can He say that we have to go through Him to get to God. Sounds stupid does it not?

    Jesus never said that we have to go through him to get to God.
    "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to the FATHER except through me."
    Jesus is a part of God, sort of Gods voice, a messenger. He is even described as being "The Word" in Genesis. Through Jesus you can get to the father, AKA the big guy upstairs.

    quote:
    As to all the supernatural mumbo jumbo.
    God has a hard enough time showing us His philosophy without having snakes, fish, angels and demons cluttering up reality and speaking to us.

    If God wanted us to believe in such miracles then He would have left an irrefutable one for us to ponder. Wouldn’t you if you had the power? I think anyone would for the proof that so many search for.


    I get really upset as to that side of what the average church goer beleives.

    quote:
    God exists and if we are in His image, and we are, then all that He knows we can understand. He tells us this in Genesis. To be as Gods, knowing good and evil.
    It is His desire to teach us. No mysteries allowed as lazy minded fundamentalists think.

    You are absolutely right. People tend to mistake Maricles with Magic. God does not do magic, that is why he has not done something that is irrefutable. everything can be explained naturally. even a king must follow the rules of his own kingdom.

    quote:
    You wrote
    “You will never get a group of people...particularly believers...to be able to prove God to you.”

    You are correct here. There is only one proof and those that seek will find it. Ask and it shall be given, comes to mind.
    I asked the right way and I have received. God is real but most Christians and others have no clue to His perfection and do not allow Him this fundamental characteristic.
    They believe in a limited God where He has no limits.


    Although in my bible study I have found hints that God must follow the rules of his kingdom (AKA the laws of physics) The above is also true. For every rule God has planned a loop hole. If you think about it with enough knowledge and resources nothing is impossible. God has planned each and every maricle he will ever do and invented a way to do it. he has infinite knowledge and infinite resources and has created the loop holes to make it work. this also means that anything he can do we can do given the same knowledge/resources.

    It says in the bible Genesis 11:5 "But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, 'If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.'"

    I don't however find where you get the idea that the God of the Bible is a "genocidal maniac". You talk as though you only read the book of genesis and maybe exodus. God always had a reason to do what he did in the bible. Really we were lucky he didn't just execute Adam and Eve for sinning in the first place. as for the flood he realizes his mistake in this and plans on destroying the world to make up for it because the world of that time was almost entirely evil. It was his punishment and his judgment on the world.

    quote:
    “ 3) Having known these things, why do you keep picking on believers as if they were lab rats? I for one will not attempt to logically define God for in so doing, I limit my understanding of Him. It is not good for my belief.”

    I do not (know these things) the way you do. If you cannot logically define God then how can anyone believe your illogical position. It is dumb to try to sell an illogical idea.
    As to the Christian rats, I try to convert them to a God that is a winner and perfect.
    Not the loser that the Bible portrays. A God that cannot get out of Heaven without flaws and evil. A God that brings this evil to earth and pits it against an innocent Eve. A God that has failed mankind and instead of killing only two in the beginning waits for millions to be on earth and then kills all but eight in a genocidal flood all in the name of Love.


    The God of the Bible is not portrayed as a loser. He wiped out the worlds population in a massive flood. Get on his bad side and you better believe you wont be calling him a looser when you get a lightning bolt down your throat. God ALWAYS wins and will have the ultimate victory in the end times as described in revelation.

    As for Eve and the snake, God did not introduce Satan into the world, Satan came in, God simply allowed him to come in expecting Eve to say "No, get away from me evil Satan." But she failed and sinned.

    Also just think of what you are saying when you said he should have killed the first 2 instead of all those people. He gave EVERYONE a chance, if he had done what you said we wouldn't exist. Those evil people got what God believed they deserved, And because he did we can be here to make a choice ourselves. If he hadn't the faith would have been lost forever and no one would ever know God.

    Anyway the point I'm trying to make is you need to understand the difference between a just God delivering his judgment and sentence upon a sinful people, and a "Genocidal Maniac" The God you are describing is the God of the Bible. A perfect, no limits, wants to bring heaven on earth God. But he has to punish those who are against him. But at the same time is gracious enough to forgive those who believe in his son, who he sent to be a savior for us because he loved us.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by Greatest I am, posted 02-18-2008 9:27 AM Greatest I am has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 02-20-2008 8:54 AM willietdog has responded

      
    Greatest I am
    Member (Idle past 544 days)
    Posts: 1423
    Joined: 01-24-2007


    Message 14 of 61 (456806)
    02-20-2008 8:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 13 by willietdog
    02-20-2008 1:39 AM


    Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
    willietdog

    You wrote
    “Jesus never said that we have to go through him to get to God.
    "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to the FATHER except through me."

    You were doing so well then the above contradicts itself.

    You wrote
    “realizes his mistake”

    God does not make mistakes. That is a human trait.

    You wrote
    “The God of the Bible is not portrayed as a loser.”

    I beg to differ.
    He could not get out of heaven without creating an evil entity called Satan.
    He could not get us started properly with Adam and eve becoming evil thus casting them out.
    He could only find 8 good souls and sent a flood killing millions including innocent children and babies.

    What happened to hate sin and love sinners. He killed all those sinners that He loved.
    Strange indeed. He does look like a loser.

    You wrote
    “ God did not introduce Satan into the world, Satan came in, God simply allowed him to come”

    To allow Satan in is to introduce him to earth.
    You indicate that God was wrong in His expectation. He failed yet again.

    You wrote
    “because he loved us. “

    Killing us is a strange way to show love.
    Please do not love those around you.

    A strange war cry indeed. I love you so die.

    Regards
    DL


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by willietdog, posted 02-20-2008 1:39 AM willietdog has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by willietdog, posted 02-23-2008 11:44 PM Greatest I am has responded

        
    willietdog
    Inactive Member


    Message 15 of 61 (457547)
    02-23-2008 11:44 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Greatest I am
    02-20-2008 8:54 AM


    Re: The Pied Piper Of Believers
    quote:
    You wrote
    “Jesus never said that we have to go through him to get to God.
    "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Light. No one comes to the FATHER except through me."

    You were doing so well then the above contradicts itself.


    Those two quotes are not contradictory. Jesus is GOD, the FATHER is also GOD, so is the holy spirit. but they are separate. it is a concept i can not begin to describe or understand.

    I was saying Jesus is not the way to GOD but to the FATHER, or basically the judge.

    "realized his mistake"

    I couldn't think of a better word. but it is not a literal mistake. more of a negative thing that God knew would happen as a result but chose to not interfere and later "corrected".

    quote:

    He could not get out of heaven without creating an evil entity called Satan.
    He could not get us started properly with Adam and eve becoming evil thus casting them out.
    He could only find 8 good souls and sent a flood killing millions including innocent children and babies.

    #1 and #2.) Satan was an angel that chose to rebel. God allows things he creates to make choices, but he does punish him. God then allowed man which he created to choose between him or Satan.

    #3.) Not his fault everyone else didn't believe.

    Finally. HOW IS ANY OF THAT HIS FAULT. The only problem God has is with his creations who are all inferior to him are rebels, AND THEN HE'S STUCK HAVING TO FIX EVERYTHING.

    "because he loved us"

    he didn't kill us because he loved us. he loved us, but because we were rebellious he had to kill us.

    Edited by willietdog, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by Greatest I am, posted 02-20-2008 8:54 AM Greatest I am has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 16 by Rahvin, posted 02-24-2008 1:05 AM willietdog has responded
     Message 17 by Greatest I am, posted 02-24-2008 9:34 AM willietdog has responded

      
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