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Author Topic:   Thanking God in our National Anthem
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3481 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 1 of 23 (285378)
02-10-2006 12:13 AM


Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

Appropiate and moving....reading the national anthem, I thought about these last words to it, and wonder if one day some will take offense at official praise to God.


Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4401 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 2 of 23 (285423)
02-10-2006 5:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
02-10-2006 12:13 AM


The national anthem... as sung... is usually devoid of that section. Perhaps you can tell me where you heard the entire song has been sung?

Until everyone is routinely forced to sing it with that section (looks like a tongue twister to me anyway) included, there probably won't be much complaint.

I wonder if one day some will take offense that we don't sing the entire anthem so that everyone is forced to sing the word "God"?


holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by riVeRraT, posted 02-10-2006 5:42 AM Silent H has responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 3 of 23 (285426)
02-10-2006 5:42 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Silent H
02-10-2006 5:32 AM



I wonder if one day some will take offense that we don't sing the entire anthem so that everyone is forced to sing the word "God"?

Either way your not forced to do anything, and to me, that is what is important.


This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4401 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 4 of 23 (285428)
02-10-2006 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by riVeRraT
02-10-2006 5:42 AM


Either way your not forced to do anything, and to me, that is what is important.

1) Right now students are forced to say "under God" in the pledge of allegiance... indeed that they must say a pledge at all is sort of disconcerting to me.
2) Right now I am being forced to look at your avatar and it is freaking me out.


holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by riVeRraT, posted 02-10-2006 5:42 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2509 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 5 of 23 (285501)
02-10-2006 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Silent H
02-10-2006 6:00 AM


students are not required to say the pledge of allegiance. god help me if i can find the case law for it. furthermore, no student who chooses to say the pledge would ever have to say it in it's entirety. i personally thing the pledge is a scary fascist farce. but that's just me.

i agree that his avatar is scary. much worse than yaro's.

This message has been edited by brennakimi, 02-10-2006 11:37 AM


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wiseman45
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 23 (285506)
02-10-2006 11:43 AM


Actually...
Here's the whole context of the whole anthem, as Francis Scott Key originally wrote it.

"O say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore dimly seen thro' the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected, now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner: O, long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash'd out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

O thus be it ever when free-men shall stand
Between their lov'd home and the war's desolation;
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: 'In God is our trust!'
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!"

So it turns out that randman is right, after all. On the whole "in god is our trust" part, well, I don't know what to say. Technically, schools are to remain secular because they are public government funded and -run institutions. So that's why those lines were removed, perhaps. This needs further investigation. Any takers?

Or, maybe its just when the anthem was adapted (to the tune of an Irish Drinking Song, by the way) they cut out all that because its to long. As you might notice, they cut out more than just the "in god we trust" part, in the actual official national anthem. Either way, it doesn't matter, neither here nor there. I have no problem with "in god we trust" being on coins. I'm a little shaky on the whole "under god" line in the pledge, because that was added long after the original pledge was written. It used to just be "one nation, indivisible." Period. However, the general conservatives in power during that time successfully added it. I don't know if it should be removed, but its a little questionable.


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3481 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 7 of 23 (285508)
02-10-2006 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by wiseman45
02-10-2006 11:43 AM


Re: Actually...
We were getting pounded by the Brits.....and they were all desperate to know whether the flag was still there....would we make it as nation.

We forget how close we came to being defeated in the War of 1812.

For example, Washington DC would have been completely burned and occupied if not for a freak storm, maybe a hurricane, but it didn't hit the southern states, that literally descended and blew the Brits away. They fled the storm, not us.


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5619
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 8 of 23 (285537)
02-10-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by randman
02-10-2006 11:47 AM


Re: Actually...
We were getting pounded by the Brits.....

While we are on this topic, people might want to look at the British National Anthem. It has some parts that are usually not sung (for good reason).

This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4401 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 9 of 23 (285552)
02-10-2006 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by wiseman45
02-10-2006 11:43 AM


Re: Actually...
So it turns out that randman is right, after all

I didn't doubt that he was right that it was in there. I had read that whole thing a while ago. The point is that no one is ever really compelled to sing it, and when they do definitely not the section he is discussing.

None of this really bothers me enough to do anything about it. I don't like national anthems and pledges, so its sort of off from the get go, but I'm not going to waste energy trying to shoot it down.

In God We Trust on the money is just as ridiculous as Under God in the pledge, and it was added for the same kinds of reason. We have a thread on that somewhere at EvC, and I provided a link to the US Mints history of the addition. Wholly for prosyletizing.

In the end I have a sort of laugh as it actually debases their religion, rather than debasing my feelings about the nation.


holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 10 of 23 (285555)
02-10-2006 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by wiseman45
02-10-2006 11:43 AM


Re: Actually...
quote:
I have no problem with "in god we trust" being on coins. I'm a little shaky on the whole "under god" line in the pledge, because that was added long after the original pledge was written.

But the reason "in god we trust" is on coins at all is because during the civil war, devout people demanded to have it put on there. It's disappeared from several coins here and there for years, and "in god we trust" wasn't made our national motto until the Cold War.

I am frankly disturbed and offended that this is our national motto, when in my mind it should be "E Pluribus Unum" (out of many, one)

The Founders minted money without religious indications of any kind on it for a reason.


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Silent H
Member (Idle past 4401 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 11 of 23 (285586)
02-10-2006 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by nator
02-10-2006 12:50 PM


Re: Actually...
when in my mind it should be "E Pluribus Unum"

It still is a motto of the US.

IGWT may be some free floating "national motto", but EPU was instituted as a National Motto as part of our Great Seal. When IGWT was put into place, the congress said that it did not remove EPU. EPU remains as the ONLY motto on our nation's Great Seal, as well as the Presidential Seal, and on the money.


holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by nator, posted 02-10-2006 12:50 PM nator has responded

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nator
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 12 of 23 (285619)
02-10-2006 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Silent H
02-10-2006 1:32 PM


Re: Actually...
well, that's good.

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 23 (285705)
02-10-2006 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
02-10-2006 12:13 AM


quote:
I...wonder if one day some will take offense at official praise to God.

Maybe. I'm offended just having a national anthem. I arrive late to sporting events on purpose just so I won't have to stand during the thing.


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 501 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 14 of 23 (285728)
02-10-2006 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Silent H
02-10-2006 6:00 AM



Right now students are forced to say "under God" in the pledge of allegiance

You mean they are forced to hear free speech, but they don't actually have to say anything.


Right now I am being forced to look at your avatar and it is freaking me out.

Should I change it?
I won't keep it much longer.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 5619
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 15 of 23 (285738)
02-10-2006 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by riVeRraT
02-10-2006 7:08 PM


You mean they are forced to hear free speech, but they don't actually have to say anything.

It may vary from state to state. It is my understanding that, at least in some states, students are required to recite the pledge of allegiance. If so, this is not a matter of free speech. It is a matter of coercing students into expressing particular beliefs.

I am against all such coercion, even without the "under God" phrase.

On your avatar:

Should I change it?

Your choice. It doesn't bother me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by riVeRraT, posted 02-10-2006 7:08 PM riVeRraT has responded

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