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Author Topic:   Is belief in God a moral or factual matter?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1 of 3 (311207)
05-11-2006 9:28 PM


The nature of faith or belief is a side issue that is going on and on although it's off topic on the thread about whether giving evidence for the existence of God somehow weakens faith. At first I didn't think there was enough material for a new thread but maybe there is.
It's kind of arbitrary where we pick it up I suppose, but here's a post of robinrohan's:
Here's another way of looking at it. Suppose I believe that the earth is flat. Have I committed an immoral act by believing such? No, I'm simply wrong in a factual sense, not in a moral sense.
So if I say I believe there is no God, it seems to me the same evaluation applies. I might be wrong factually, but not morally.
And one of my answers to it:
That is how the fallen mind thinks. If you want to trust it, that's your choice. But it's also why God gave His revelation of Himself in the Bible, so that we wouldn't be at the mercy of our fallen broken minds. Read the ten commandments. Have you obeyed them all to perfection? Only that would make you moral enough to avoid Hell. Otherwise you need a special dispensation of mercy from God. Which His revelation says He's provided. You can take it or leave it. If you trust your own intuition about what's right and moral over this purported revelation, and don't believe that your intuition and general powers of reasoning are terminally flawed by something we call the Fall, well, good luck.
And another of my answers (#113):
Didn't get your whole post answered last time. Why it isn't just a factual matter to believe in God or not.
Not to recognize the God who made you is a moral flaw, also a factual error but it's certainly moral as well, because both these flaws or errors are part of your fallen nature and the fallen nature is the result of moral transgression. The fallen nature is the consequence of the DISOBEDIENCE of God by our first parents. Disobedience of God is a moral matter, and it is the cause of our estrangement from God ever since. Again, all you have is your fallen thoughts on the one hand, and something purported to be God's revelation on the other, and it's your job to choose. If you choose your fallen thoughts, as I said, good luck.
Oh, almost forgot. I guess you also have the option of Eastern style meditation in which you might learn to recognize (or achieve the state of, or whatever) the No-Self and supposedly be freed of your moral debt* that way. Good luck with that one too.
ABE: * I note that Lfen has not mentioned the concept of a moral debt in all his discussions of freeing oneself from Samsara or the wheel of suffering, but the CAUSE of suffering in at least many cases (I don't know the whole philosophy) is Karma, or moral debt. What one extinguishes in Nirvana is Karma. There's more to it I suppose but it's interesting that that is left out of the discussion.
That endless wheel, and all those supposed incarnations the Hindus and Buddhists believe in, are the result of moral debt. If you do a little better in one life you may get a nice temporary paradise between lives, but it's never over and you have to go back again to earth life and since we are all born in Ignorance you won't have a clue why you're there and are just as likely to do something really heinously bad and get sent to a terrible temporary hell next time, not to mention that in some Hindu views you could come back as something less than human as a result.
and one of Iano's {#114):
Faith writes:
Otherwise you need a special dispensation of mercy from God.
"Oh wretched man that I am! WHO will deliver me from this body of death" is the point at which this dispensation is issued.
I came to this point. Faith did too. The only thing that will prevent a person being brought to this point is a persons own denial that they are indeed wretched.
"On average I'm not so bad" is an escape which employs mans standard (which, although seemingly all enveloping, can be punctured like a balloon)
We all do know that mans standard is insufficient. We all know what we are - were we to take our heads out of the sand for a moment
Update: RR was thinking of starting a new thread off this post, and maybe I can figure out how to condense this topic proposal later.
Faith writes:
OR, maybe we're not talking about believing a PROPOSITION, but believing the testimony of people who claim to have witnessed evidence of God.
Does it then become a moral matter?
RR writes:
I don't think so. If somebody really believes something, he can hardly be morally condemned for that. If he was only pretending to believe, that would be a moral matter, I think.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-12-2006 12:30 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPD, posted 05-12-2006 7:23 AM Faith has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 2 of 3 (311343)
05-12-2006 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Faith
05-11-2006 9:28 PM


Hey Faith,
I don't feel there's enough material. I don't really see this as a topic that will go very far and am not inclined to promote it.
There is an existing thread from last year by robinrohan, The Concept of Faith, that might suit your purpose for continuing your discussion.
I will leave this open until Monday in case another Admin wishes to promote the topic.
AdminPD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Faith, posted 05-11-2006 9:28 PM Faith has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 3 of 3 (311416)
05-12-2006 12:49 PM


Discussion Found a Home
This thread closed, since the proposed topic found a home in a current thread.

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