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Author Topic:   why is Israel left out of the sandbox , tal?
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 9 (172991)
01-02-2005 10:40 AM


I was wondering about your justification for leaving Israel out of the "sandbox", which as I recall had to do with Israel having less sand and more plant life than the rest of the region.
I found a great site which allows us to see the biodiversity of any place on a world map.
http://stort.unep-wcmc.org/imaps/gb2002/book/viewer.htm
Just click on the map over the region until you get all the major countries in view. Now look to the right of the page and click on "5.8 non-forest terrestrial ecosystems".
You will see that Israel is over half desert, just like Iraq.
So, tell us again why Israel should be left out of the "sandbox"?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Tal, posted 01-02-2005 11:03 AM nator has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5698 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 2 of 9 (172996)
01-02-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
01-02-2005 10:40 AM


*I was unable to open the link from here, but I'll assume you are correct. Does it just show vegetation by color?*
1. Personal observations. I have been to Egypt, Isreal, Jordon, Kuwait, Oman, Iraq, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia.
2. The vegetation on the ground around the rivers/lakes of arab countries consists mostly of Palm trees. Grass has a very hard time getting rooted anywhere unless that area is cultivated and foot traffic is blocked. I am currently in the Tigris river valley, which I'm sure is going to be the most "green" spot Iraq has to offer. There are a great many trees here, but most (guessing 90%) are Palm trees. There is a couple of orange trees here at the Palace, but they were planted here. I don't think Iraq is known for its oranges.
3. The vegetation around the rivers/lakes of Isreal (minus the dead sea)is what you would expect. Everything grows there, to include grass. I believe the valley of meggido is one of the most productive agricultural plains in the world.
4. All of the fish we ate in Sharm El Sheik (Egypt, southern tip if the Sinai) all came from the sea of Galilee, even though we were right on the Red Sea (Gulf of Aquaba).
5. The difference when crossing the borders in southern Isreal from Egypt or Jordon is night and day. Sand on one side, grass on the other.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 01-02-2005 10:40 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 7:15 AM Tal has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 3 of 9 (173322)
01-03-2005 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Tal
01-02-2005 11:03 AM


quote:
*I was unable to open the link from here, but I'll assume you are correct. Does it just show vegetation by color?*
Yes, it does.
It shows that there are three kinds of vegetation that grows in the region; shrubland, grassland, and cropland.
The map shows quite a bit of cropland in Israel, which I can only imagine is due to irrigation and human intervention to reclaim the desert.
quote:
1. Personal observations. I have been to Egypt, Isreal, Jordon, Kuwait, Oman, Iraq, Qatar, and Saudi Arabia.
2. The vegetation on the ground around the rivers/lakes of arab countries consists mostly of Palm trees. Grass has a very hard time getting rooted anywhere unless that area is cultivated and foot traffic is blocked.
Right.
However, quite a lot of the north of Iraq is completely covered in shrubland, along with the river valley that runs south east to the sea.
I also found this interesting bit:
Biodiversity
Although Iraq has a generally arid climate, locally it is rich in water resources and wetlands. The many wetlands in Iraq, fed primarily by the Tigris-Euphrates, were until recently of outstanding regional and global importance. Besides supporting distinctive human communities (the Ma'dan or 'Marsh Arabs') these wetlands are crucially important for breeding and migratory waterbirds. Many bird species that migrate between Eurasia and Africa or southern Asia rely on Iraq wetlands for rest and feeding.
and:
The country is central to the 'Fertile Crescent', one of the world's core areas of crop development and probably the first region to use crops and livestock in an integrated system of agricultural production, more than 10,000 years before present. Reflecting this heritage, Iraq has agricultural genetic resources (plant varieties and livestock breeds) of particular value in dryland farming, but the distribution of wild relatives and local varieties within the country is not well documented.
Now, if Iraq was just a desert, why on earth would it be an important migratory stop for waterbirds?
Maybe you haven't been to the north of Iraq?
quote:
I am currently in the Tigris river valley, which I'm sure is going to be the most "green" spot Iraq has to offer. There are a great many trees here, but most (guessing 90%) are Palm trees. There is a couple of orange trees here at the Palace, but they were planted here. I don't think Iraq is known for its oranges.
OK, but if they irrigated and kept people from walking on the ground, grass would grow, along with olive and citrus trees?
quote:
3. The vegetation around the rivers/lakes of Isreal (minus the dead sea)is what you would expect. Everything grows there, to include grass. I believe the valley of meggido is one of the most productive agricultural plains in the world.
The point is, over half of Israel is desert, which, in looking at the map, is about the same amount of desert that Iraq has.
quote:
4. All of the fish we ate in Sharm El Sheik (Egypt, southern tip if the Sinai) all came from the sea of Galilee, even though we were right on the Red Sea (Gulf of Aquaba).
OK, but this is irrelevant to if Israel is largely desert and belongs in the sandbox.
quote:
5. The difference when crossing the borders in southern Isreal from Egypt or Jordon is night and day. Sand on one side, grass on the other.
I'll bet.
The difference when travelling in most of Egypt and then being in the Nile delta is probably pretty dramatic, too, as this area has what looks like more acres of cropland in cultivation than the entire acreage of Israel, desert and all.
Why not exclude the Nile delta from the sandbox, too, for that reason?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-03-2005 07:17 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Tal, posted 01-02-2005 11:03 AM Tal has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5698 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 4 of 9 (173324)
01-03-2005 7:28 AM


You win.
*Puts Isreal in the Sandbox.*

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 9:07 AM Tal has not replied
 Message 6 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 9:10 AM Tal has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 5 of 9 (173368)
01-03-2005 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tal
01-03-2005 7:28 AM


Alrighty then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tal, posted 01-03-2005 7:28 AM Tal has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 6 of 9 (173369)
01-03-2005 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tal
01-03-2005 7:28 AM


...of course, you might just be letting me win but don't really concede the argument.
It just occurred to me that my info source mentioned that the fertile part of Iraq is part of the Fertile Crescent and had been in cultivation for around 10,000 years.
That's almost twice as long as you think that the Earth has existed, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Tal, posted 01-03-2005 7:28 AM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Brian, posted 01-03-2005 9:57 AM nator has not replied
 Message 8 by Silent H, posted 01-03-2005 10:36 AM nator has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 7 of 9 (173388)
01-03-2005 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by nator
01-03-2005 9:10 AM


Hi S,
It just occurred to me that my info source mentioned that the fertile part of Iraq is part of the Fertile Crescent and had been in cultivation for around 10,000 years.
Kathleen Kenyon also dated the earliest settlement at Jericho to be around 9000 BCE, or about 5000 years older than the Earth.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 9:10 AM nator has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5841 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 8 of 9 (173394)
01-03-2005 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by nator
01-03-2005 9:10 AM


Hey, take it where you can get it. I tried arguing the same lines but wasn't interested once it looked like it was boiling down to simply not wanting to admit he was wrong.
If he admits it, regardless of if it is in his heart, why not just accept it? He does seem eager to get to the dating issues and other things so I'm sure we'll get a chance to explain the 6K earth somewhere else.
Good job toughing it out though.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 9:10 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by nator, posted 01-03-2005 10:48 AM Silent H has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 9 of 9 (173398)
01-03-2005 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Silent H
01-03-2005 10:36 AM


quote:
Hey, take it where you can get it. I tried arguing the same lines but wasn't interested once it looked like it was boiling down to simply not wanting to admit he was wrong.
If he admits it, regardless of if it is in his heart, why not just accept it?
LOL!
Because I am terribly stubborn.
quote:
He does seem eager to get to the dating issues and other things so I'm sure we'll get a chance to explain the 6K earth somewhere else.
Good job toughing it out though.
Thanks, muffin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Silent H, posted 01-03-2005 10:36 AM Silent H has not replied

  
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