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Author Topic:   Polar ice caps and possible rise in sea level
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 2753 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 1 of 86 (142412)
09-14-2004 6:42 PM


Hey all,

Creationists (namely riverrat, in mike's "Judge not least ye be judged" thread) have said that the water needed for the Flood was frozen in the polar ice caps. The question is, how much water is there actually in the ice caps, and how much of an effect would their melting have on the global sea level?

Let's say that you have a glass of water with an ice cube in it. If the ice cube melts, the level of water in the glass should stay the same because the amount of water frozen in the ice cube is the same as the amount of water displaced by the ice cube.

So, if you think of the oceans as the glass of water and the ice caps as the cube, the melting or freezing of any floating ice in the ocean effectively doesn't change the sea level by any appreciative amount. Only ice on land will make a difference because water is being added to or removed from the oceans; the floating ice is actually water that is already part of the oceans.

So, if we would like to work out how much the sea level would rise in the event of the polar ice caps melting, floating ice would not be counted. Only land ice would contribute to rising sea levels. Is this actually enough to flood the world? I don't think so, but I would like to know how to work out the equations to find out. Also, if that volume of water is insufficient, where does the additional water needed come from?

As a side note, I find that the Snowball Earth hypothesis is still the best phenomenon I know of that even vaguely resembles a global flood (or rather its aftermath is). I wonder why creationists have not researched it more thoroughly, seeing as it is possible that the Flood is a metaphor for such an event. A discussion of the correlations between the two whould be interesting - but that might be for another thread.

Cheers

The Rock Hound

This message has been edited by IrishRockhound, 09-14-2004 03:38 PM

{Topic promoted to "Geology and the Great Flood" forum by Adminnemooseus}


Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5407
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 2 of 86 (142413)
09-14-2004 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IrishRockhound
09-14-2004 6:42 PM


I found the mention of 68 meters total sea level rise from melting the ice on the polar caps:
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question473.htm

That doesn't seem enough to help the Flud advocates very much.


This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8866
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 7.5


Message 3 of 86 (142415)
09-14-2004 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coragyps
09-14-2004 6:57 PM


Calculate it yourself
You can get a reasonable estimate yourself.

1) Look up the area of antarctica (it has about 90% of the ice)
2) assume a depth of ice that is reasonable (I think 2km is it)
3) determine that volume, convert it to water
4) spread that over the 3/4 of the earth that is ocean

This does give you around the 60 m raise if I remember correctly.

It ignores the difference in volume between water and ice. It ignores the compression of the water with increased depth.


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Lammy
Member
Posts: 3612
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 4 of 86 (142417)
09-14-2004 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coragyps
09-14-2004 6:57 PM


Coragyps writes:

That doesn't seem enough to help the Flud advocates very much.


Such a flood would change life as we know it, though.


The Laminator

We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.

For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!


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jar
Member
Posts: 31652
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 5 of 86 (142422)
09-14-2004 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Coragyps
09-14-2004 6:57 PM


The highest estimate I've ever been able to find is 82 meters, with perhaps as much as another equal amout possible if the water itself expands based on rising water temperatures (a long term effect. Initial results of all ice melting would be a reduction in average water temperature.) causeing the volume of water to expand.

Here is a link to a site that also includes some worst case graphics that would show what areas get flooded.

Click here for image


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 86 (142427)
09-14-2004 7:24 PM


More Reinforcement for the Black Sea Flood
All the above posts in this thread give additional reinforcement to the idea that the Flood Myth originates in the flood caused when a post-Ice Age rise in the Mediterranean Sea level breached the Bosphorus and re-inundated the Black Sea basin that had evaporated during the millennia of the preceding ice age.

Replies to this message:
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IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 2753 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 7 of 86 (142429)
09-14-2004 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Lammy
09-14-2004 7:08 PM


That really isn't the point. 82 metres isn't enough to flood the Earth. We're down to "god made more water appear" or "the land wasn't as high back then". Both are essentially goddidit scenarios, so is there any options that the creationists aren't telling us about?

Changing life as we know it isn't entirely relevent; the Flood was supposed to cover all the land. If there are no suggestions as to where the hell all the water came from, and where it went to afterwards, then the Flood's credibility takes yet another nose-dive.


Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.

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IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 2753 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 8 of 86 (142431)
09-14-2004 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Abshalom
09-14-2004 7:24 PM


Re: More Reinforcement for the Black Sea Flood
Well-said; I would think that that is the likely and possibly the sensible explanation. But where are the creationists who insist that the Flood happened exactly as it is in the bible?

Buz? Mike? Anyone?


Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do.

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IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 2753 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 9 of 86 (142541)
09-15-2004 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by IrishRockhound
09-14-2004 7:34 PM


Re: More Reinforcement for the Black Sea Flood
Bump

Anyone?

Watch, as I hover over the coffin of Noah's Flood, ready with my hammer and yet another nail...

The Rock Hound


This message is a reply to:
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Lammy
Member
Posts: 3612
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 10 of 86 (142557)
09-15-2004 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by IrishRockhound
09-15-2004 2:02 PM


Re: More Reinforcement for the Black Sea Flood
I'm going to defend the pro-flood people with, I think, their strongest argument. IFF god is all power, there is no reason why he couldn't snap his fingers and made the missing water disappear.


The Laminator

We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.

For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by IrishRockhound, posted 09-15-2004 2:02 PM IrishRockhound has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31652
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 11 of 86 (142599)
09-15-2004 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Lammy
09-15-2004 3:24 PM


Re: More Reinforcement for the Black Sea Flood
Has to snap twice. Once to turn the heavenly faucet on, once to open the heavenly drain to cart it away.

Reminds me of an old Cream song.

Are we rolling? A one, a two, a three, a four...

A mother was washing her baby one night;
The youngest of ten and a delicate mite.
The mother was poor and the baby was thin;
'Twas naught but a skeleton covered with skin.

The mother turned 'round for a soap off the rack.
She was only a moment but when she turned back
Her baby had gone, and in anguish she cried,
"Oh, where has my baby gone?" The angels replied:

Oh, your baby has gone down the plug hole.
Oh, your baby has gone down the plug.
The poor little thing was so skinny and thin,
He should have been washed in a jug, in a jug.

Your baby is perfectly happy;
He won't need a bath anymore.
He's a-muckin' about with the angels above,
Not lost but gone before.

Do you want to do it again?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 2753 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 12 of 86 (142666)
09-16-2004 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Lammy
09-15-2004 3:24 PM


Re: More Reinforcement for the Black Sea Flood
If the only explanation left is 'goddidit', then how do you get non-believers to take you seriously?

It's a bit like saying that the Flatulent Pink Unicorn is all-powerful, and therefore made it happen. Same difference to anyone who doesn't buy into it to start with.

I declare another nail hammered into the coffin of the Flood.

The Rock Hound


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Lammy
Member
Posts: 3612
From: Chicago
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 13 of 86 (142675)
09-16-2004 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by IrishRockhound
09-16-2004 7:00 AM


Re: More Reinforcement for the Black Sea Flood
IRh writes:

If the only explanation left is 'goddidit', then how do you get non-believers to take you seriously?


The same reason that physicists expect YEC's to believe the the stars are a lot older than 6,000 years. Although I can't really understand their reasoning, but as far as I can tell they think it is better to believe in a magical being than empirical evidence that we've collected the last several hundred years or so.


The Laminator

We are the bog. Resistance is voltage over current.

For goodness's sake, please vote Democrat this November!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by IrishRockhound, posted 09-16-2004 7:00 AM IrishRockhound has not yet responded

Bill Birkeland
Member (Idle past 849 days)
Posts: 165
From: Louisiana
Joined: 01-30-2003


Message 14 of 86 (142755)
09-16-2004 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IrishRockhound
09-14-2004 6:42 PM


In message 1, the IrishRockhound wrote

"Creationists (namely riverrat, in mike's "Judge not least
ye be judged" thread) have said that the water needed for
the Flood was frozen in the polar ice caps. The question
is, how much water is there actually in the ice caps, and
how much of an effect would their melting have on the
global sea level?"

This question is answered in "Estimated Present-Day Area* and Volume* of Glaciers and Maximum Sea Level Rise Potential", which is the introduction to U.S. Geological Survey Professional Paper 1386-A, by Richard S. Williams, Jr., and Jane G. Ferrigno at:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs133-99/gl_vol.html

The above article provides a detailed listing of the area and volume of and estimated maximum sea level rise that the melting of the different ice caps would cause. according to them;

1.melting of the inland and local ice caps of Greenland would cause sea level to rise 6.55 meters (21.48 ft),

2. melting of all of the ice in Antarctica would cause sea level to rise 73.44 meters (240.88 ft),

and 3. melting of all other glaciers and ice caps, and ice fields in the world would cause sea level to rise 0.45 meters (1.47 ft).

Total sea level rise from the melting of all of the above would be 80.44 meters (263.83 ft).

Although such sea level rise would be a catastrophe relative to many coastal countries, it falls far short of a global Noachian Flood.

For a second opinion, a person can look at "Sea Level and Climate" at:

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs2-00/

They estimated that the melting of all the Earth's ice caps, ice fields, glaciers, etc. would raise sea level by 80.32 meters (263.44 ft), of which 73.32 meters (240.49 ft) of sea level rise would come from Antarctica.

Yours,

Bill


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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 2686 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 15 of 86 (142768)
09-16-2004 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by IrishRockhound
09-14-2004 6:42 PM


The polar ice caps were a post flood event and did not exist before the flood. Many creationists do invoke the polar ice but others don't.
Also it is true that the ice melt would not alone account for the water needed. However if one included groundwater and rainwater (at the time) I think even with what is known now the water is there. Anyways accounting for the water is a very off broadway thing for creationists.
Rob

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