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Author Topic:   Criteria for prophesy
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 1 of 19 (172649)
12-31-2004 11:36 PM


I was just dealing with buzsaw in another thread and I felt a need to start a topic based upon this statement.
Getting too off topic to debate it, but whenever specific things happen, no matter how many nor how specific they are, you skeptics simply shrug them off in denial rather than substantially confronting and refutting those specifics
Now I would like to first see if some kind of agreement on what constitutes specific as concerns biblical prophesy can be achieved.If the prophesy is dependent upon fitting a given event to the prophesy when another event can be shown to be just as valid as far as the accuracy of the prophesy goes then I submit the prophesy itself is an illusion.
A proper prophesy,if it is of any real value would,one might argue, leave no doubt as to its definitive nature. To be considered a valid prophesy IMO it would easily fulfill these criteria.
1}The event would have significantly precise information as to people involved.
2}The location would be named in a time specific way {event present name as opposed to ancient geographical description.}
3}The event timeline would not be vague since there are numerous times within recorded history where the claim is made that that time period met the criteria by way of interpretation.For examples see the website http://www.abhota.info/
Time is the great downfall of prophesy in my eyes since they all basically avoid placing the year of the event much less anything of greater accuracy. This is a critical flaw that must be addressed with utmost necessity since the crux of prophesy is time dependent.
In this way a prophesy would eliminate guesswork and be something that shows proven value.To take a skeptical position is the means by which we eliminate wishful thinking and human biases.
So let us first discuss if there is a problem with the criteria and if so in what way.From there we can advance to other critical evaluations of the phenomena.
The floor stands open to discussion.I think this would fit in Miscellaneous Topics in Creation/Evolution.

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 19 (172654)
01-01-2005 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
12-31-2004 11:36 PM


Not an evolution topic misc or not.
How about Biblical inerrancy?

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 3 of 19 (172665)
01-01-2005 2:12 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
01-01-2005 12:04 AM


Re: Not an evolution topic misc or not.
That is a possibity though prophesies may be non biblical. As you see fit O wise one of the pacific northwest.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 4 of 19 (172944)
01-02-2005 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by sidelined
01-01-2005 2:12 AM


Re: Not an evolution topic misc or not.
AdminNosy
I am good with Biblical Inerrency

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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 5 of 19 (172956)
01-02-2005 4:55 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 6 of 19 (173024)
01-02-2005 12:30 PM


Bump

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 19 (173028)
01-02-2005 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by sidelined
01-02-2005 12:30 PM


Would an additional criteria be that the prophecy must be generally understood before the fact?
As the old saying goes, "Hindsight is 20/20".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 8 of 19 (173063)
01-02-2005 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
12-31-2004 11:36 PM


Target Audience
Does the propehcy truly target a future audience?
If it does, wouldn't it be written so the target audience could understand?
IMO it doesn't serve a purpose to give a prophecy 2000 or more years ahead of time.
Just my thoughts. Not sure if it serves as a criteria.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 9 of 19 (173228)
01-03-2005 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by purpledawn
01-02-2005 2:06 PM


Re: Target Audience
I think an enormous boost to the validity of the prophesy would be a means of accomplishing its task and not at the same time be revealed until the events surrounding it were underway.Say,for instance,the discovery of a manuscript of verifiable ancestry that is written in a language that did not exist at the time of writing,revealing the sequence of events that match up to the realization of the prophesy again with the names,times and locations specified.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 19 (173239)
01-03-2005 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
12-31-2004 11:36 PM


what about fulfilled prophesies, should they exist?
i'm not even gonna bother getting into context of prophesy just at this second, but i have a side question. so just play along for a minute or two. this came to mind watching "jesus christ superstar" the other night, during the palm sunday scene.
now, suppose this verse in zechariah actually means the sort of "king" jesus was, instead of the kind that sits on a throne in jerusalem:
quote:
Zec 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he [is] just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
and now suppose that jesus actually DID ride into jerusalem on a donkey.
it fulfills the prophesy, but does it meet the standard for proven prophesies? ...not really, no. jesus probably read zechariah. heck, i've read zechariah, and i could concievably go borrow a donkey and ride into jerusalem. (in fact, i must remember to do this should i ever visit; it'd be a great trump card in debates)
there's also another possibility. maybe the zechariah verse was re-written to describe the actions of jesus. it doesn't work with this specific example, since we have texts of zechariah older than jesus, but this is very valid concern with OTHER fulfilled bible prophesies. if the only text of the verse is newer than the fulfillment, it doesn't really count, does it?
so even if the prophesy is fulfilled, in glorious specificity, it doesn't really mean much of anything.
but as my bible teacher pointed out, the things that mean MORE are the unfilled prophesies, because we know these are real. who'd write failed prophesies after the fact? an obvious nobody read them and tried to fulfill them, and suceeded. these, and changes between repeated prophesies (like the line of davidic kings prophesies) helps both date and determine the integrity of the books of the bible...
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 01-03-2005 02:00 AM

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Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 11 of 19 (173245)
01-03-2005 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by arachnophilia
01-03-2005 1:56 AM


Re: what about fulfilled prophesies, should they exist?
and now suppose that jesus actually DID ride into jerusalem on a donkey.
it fulfills the prophesy, but does it meet the standard for proven prophesies? ...not really, no. jesus probably read zechariah. heck, i've read zechariah, and i could concievably go borrow a donkey and ride into jerusalem.
Did Jesus also set up being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver? Or having his clothes gambled away?

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 12 of 19 (173259)
01-03-2005 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by arachnophilia
01-03-2005 1:56 AM


Re: what about fulfilled prophesies, should they exist?
Arachnophilia
but as my bible teacher pointed out, the things that mean MORE are the unfilled prophesies, because we know these are real
Which unfilled prophesies do you know to be real if they have not yet occured?You make the valid observation that prophecies after the fact are not prophecies,however, I am trying to arrive at that which would constitute a prophecy that is not a result of us fitting the prophesy to the event but the event being fortold with a precision in names,locations,and actual times such that it makes the likelihood of bias in the part of humans eager for verification slim.
Vagueness and ambiguity are the hallmarks of prophecies and indeed it is the same with astrology and such.It is far too easy to play on the common human tendency to deception that allows these things to avoid critical analysis.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 13 of 19 (173265)
01-03-2005 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tal
01-03-2005 2:13 AM


Re: what about fulfilled prophesies, should they exist?
Did Jesus also set up being betrayed for 30 pieces of silver? Or having his clothes gambled away?
first of all, i'm talking about a hypothetical. i just used a real example that everyone was familiar with. in reality, the person who wrote matthew seems to have gone out of his way to fulfill old testament prophesies that could not have applied to christ, and to ridiculous literalcy. matthew has christ ride into jerusalem on two different animals, because he misunderstands parallelism in jewish poetry (which tells me the author of matthew is NOT jewish).
like i pointed out, the zechariah verse was talking about king to physically rule and lead judah: someone who sits on a throne, in the palace in jerusalem.
did jesus set up those things? maybe. but maybe the author did. and it is quite possible that the betrayal was planned -- the meaning of the greek word we read as betrayed lacks the sense of back-stabbing we read into it. quite literally, it says that judas DELIVERED jesus to the romans, and they paid him for it.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 14 of 19 (173269)
01-03-2005 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by sidelined
01-03-2005 2:46 AM


Re: what about fulfilled prophesies, should they exist?
Which unfilled prophesies do you know to be real if they have not yet occured?
sorry, i wasn't clear. i meant broken prophesies, unfulfilled in the sense that they just didn't happen. for instance the continuing line of david kings that was broke in biblical times by the babylonian exhile. samuel and chronicles differ a little in their wording of the prophesy, one gives the impression of "unless the jews mess up" as an out. the prophesy of tyre becoming unhibatible, and no city ever being rebuilt on it is another example -- it has a thriving tourist industry (and website!) today.
I am trying to arrive at that which would constitute a prophecy that is not a result of us fitting the prophesy to the event but the event being fortold with a precision in names,locations,and actual times such that it makes the likelihood of bias in the part of humans eager for verification slim.
well, the point that i'm batting at here is that no such prophesy exists, nor can it, really. even if i said "tomorrow morning at 9:03 est, your toast will pop up burned beyond belief, your toaster explode, and leave a scorch mark on the counter in the exact geometric shape of the proof of the pythagorean theorem" and it actually happen -- sure it's be a little spooky, but what's to say it's not just a freak coincidence? does it prove i'm god, or that i speak for him? or am i pyrotechnics expert and a stalker?
there will ALWAYS be questions, doubt, holes, etc, in any prophesy. and any fortune teller or astrologer knows the vague ones work the best anyways.

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Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 15 of 19 (173270)
01-03-2005 3:16 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by arachnophilia
01-03-2005 3:07 AM


Re: what about fulfilled prophesies, should they exist?
So in your view the Romans casting lots for his clothes is just a fact the writer(s) threw in there to attempt to fullfill what they percieved as prophecy?

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

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