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Author Topic:   What is the universe expanding into?
Jerry
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 12 (112347)
06-02-2004 7:23 AM


In other forums I have been told that the universe is expanding but is not expanding into anything. I would appreciate your views on this subject. My reason for most everything I inquire into is to prove one point. That is to prove that Infinity Exists and therefore there never was a beginning and therefore no creation. There may have been a singularity for the visible matter but I am not convinced that all of the dark matter was part of it. I think the universe is expanding into an Infinity of dark matter which also contains an Infinity of other universes in varying stages of birth, life and death.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Dr Jack, posted 06-02-2004 7:32 AM Jerry has not yet responded
 Message 3 by Melchior, posted 06-02-2004 8:01 AM Jerry has responded

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 1170 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 2 of 12 (112349)
06-02-2004 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jerry
06-02-2004 7:23 AM


The universe is not expanding into anything. The universe is not expanding in the convential sense, instead the fabric of space-time itself is "stretching". It doesn't need anything to expand 'into'.

This message is a reply to:
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Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 12 (112353)
06-02-2004 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jerry
06-02-2004 7:23 AM


Why would dark matter follow different rules than 'light' matter? The only difference is how it interacts with us visibly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jerry, posted 06-02-2004 7:23 AM Jerry has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Jerry, posted 06-02-2004 8:42 AM Melchior has not yet responded
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Jerry
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 12 (112356)
06-02-2004 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Melchior
06-02-2004 8:01 AM


Expanding but not expanding
I do wonder how you visualize something in your mind that you say was a singularity smaller than a proton that becomes the size of this universe but doesn't actually expand or expand into something. Are you just accepting what someone theorized or can you actually visualize something getting bigger without getting bigger or getting bigger without taking up more space? I believe that when any kind of seed is planted it grows in size by taking in matter from outside itself and that a universe would be no different than anything else.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 1170 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 5 of 12 (112357)
06-02-2004 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jerry
06-02-2004 8:42 AM


Re: Expanding but not expanding
Two things:

1. The universe does not take in matter from outside. It does not increase in energy.

2. What you can, or cannot, visualise is utterly irrelevant to the question of what is.


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Replies to this message:
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Darwin's Terrier
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 12 (112365)
06-02-2004 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Jack
06-02-2004 9:00 AM


Re: Expanding but not expanding
2. What you can, or cannot, visualise is utterly irrelevant to the question of what is.

Yep. To paraphrase Dawkins somewhat, our brains have evolved cope with things of medium size moving at medium speeds in a three (four) dimensional world, with a certain amount of gravity etc. It doesn’t matter if something is counter-intuitive: intuition of the sort we’ve got has no place when talking about things on different scales from those we evolved to understand. What counts is what the evidence shows.

So, don’t try to visualise it. Instead, read up on (or just trust the people who have studied) the maths involved.

Cheers, DT


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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8965
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 7 of 12 (112366)
06-02-2004 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Melchior
06-02-2004 8:01 AM


Dark Matter
Dark matter is just a name given to whatever causes the unexplained addtional gravity that is detected by the dynamics of galaxies. Various ideas have been put forward to explain it. Some of these consider it to be simply ordinary matter that is not radiating in anyway that is detectable. Others suggest more exotic forms of matter. For the former it is true that the only difference is the way it "interacts with us visibly.

I don't think this is settled or anywhere near being settled.


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Replies to this message:
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Jerry
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 12 (112579)
06-03-2004 6:47 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by NosyNed
06-02-2004 10:26 AM


Re: Dark Matter
Can anyone prove that the universe doesn't take in matter from outside? For instance, do neutrinos go to the edge of the universe and just stop or do they continue on into "empty" space and possibly on to penetrate other universes? Could we be exchanging neutrinos and other matter with other universes?
Can anyone prove that the universe is not expanding into something? Personally I think it is irrational to think that something the size of a pea suddenly becoming the size of a basketball does not take up space it did not previously fill.
The problem with believing what the evidence show is that as we learn more we find that the evidence we once accepted becomes erroneous because we find other factors that alter the conclusions we have already made. Like the age of the earth and the universe continues to change.
I'm afraid I have a serious problem with accepting anything, that I can not visualize, just because someone who is an expert and has studied it a great deal tells me that they have the evidence to prove something. Ministers and priests have also studied what they believe and can tell you the same thing.
It would not suprise me that in the distant future someone was to discover that an atom has no empty space whatsoever but is filled with matter, like a liquid, made of particles far smaller than what we are now capable of seeing. In other words find that there is no such thing as nothing anywhere in Infinite space. Well, I guess thats enough rambling on.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Dr Jack, posted 06-03-2004 7:14 AM Jerry has responded

  
Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 1170 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 9 of 12 (112580)
06-03-2004 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jerry
06-03-2004 6:47 AM


Re: Dark Matter
You could do that sure, but be aware that you're commiting yourself to a position no better than 'making shit up'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jerry, posted 06-03-2004 6:47 AM Jerry has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jerry
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 12 (112661)
06-03-2004 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Jack
06-03-2004 7:14 AM


Re: Dark Matter
That may be true but it sure seems like some of the theories out there are exactly that. "Making shit up". Brane theory sure sounds that way. It seems like their setting around making up things that are so far out that they could never be proved so they will be accepted as a viable theory.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33497
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 11 of 12 (112675)
06-03-2004 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Jerry
06-03-2004 3:19 PM


Re: Dark Matter
Question.

How is a viable theory accepted or rejected?

What makes a theory viable?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8965
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 12 of 12 (112679)
06-03-2004 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Jerry
06-03-2004 3:19 PM


Branes
Brane theory sure sounds that way. It seems like their setting around making up things that are so far out that they could never be proved so they will be accepted as a viable theory.

I agree with you it sounds that way.

I once had a math-physics prof who liked to do cosmology "on the side". He said it was fun because no one could prove anything .

However, brane theory is a good example of how progress is made on the bleeding edge of science. Many crazy ideas are made up over coffee or beer (I've sat back and watched some of that happen). Most of them don't make it out of the coffee room. Someone points out a serious flaw in the first few minutes.

But some make it a bit further. Some real math is done and it sort of hangs together. It may then be enough for a speculative paper or two. Branes are not elevated to the status of a viable theory yet. I don't think they are much above the speculation level (but I could be wrong since I can't handle the math). Already though the next stage is being entered.

Now it is necessary to see if there is any way to test the idea. Can it be falsified? Does it predict anything new that can be tested? Is there any possible experiment?

If none of those is try it will end up as an interesting side branch waiting, perhaps, for an advance in technology. If it has a lot of interesting conseqences from the math it may continue to get some attention though. For example, if it can "predict" the relative strength of gravity accurately in some way, it will get much more attention.

I'm not an expert but I think that the idea of branes will get some attention for awhile but will slow right down if no tests or interesting math comes out of it. It is definitely not anything like a full blown, formal, tested theory.

This message has been edited by NosyNed, 06-03-2004 04:53 PM

This message has been edited by NosyNed, 06-03-2004 04:55 PM


This message is a reply to:
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